dilby

Hi everyone; got a bit of a frustrating situation I was hoping some kind folks could help with. I'll try to be brief: I took on a project for a food brand this time last year which involved a website and a product photo shoot. They paid a 25% deposit and I did an initial product shoot which matched reference images included in the contract. The stakeholder I was working directly with who had been my sole contact and who signed the contract said she loved the initial photos and even used some in marketing without me knowing. However a few days later I was contacted by the head honcho of the company (her father) who told me he didn't like the direction and wanted to change the entire plan to contain super high end photography (they are a frozen food company and he wanted a style i'd need specialist facilities and equipment for) and also gave me ambiguous feedback like 'it's not angelic enough'. So I wrote back saying my original project lead's vision (which was also in the brief) is different to what you're saying and different to the brief/contract and I'm unable to do what you're asking, and sought to seek a solution. They never replied and went MIA on me. I had assumed they'd given up internally. Then only a couple of weeks ago they got in contact, saying they'd been busy which is why they hadn't replied to me, and wanted to meet with me. I replied that i would do so but only if all stakeholders were present so we could work out a single agreed plan moving forward, and they agreed to this (my google calendar invitation also has this stipulation). I turned up to the meeting and they weren't there, just one member of staff who couldn't help me as she hasn't been involved, but she gave me a used scrap piece of paper torn from a desk pad that had some one word bullet points scrawled on the back that make no sense to me without context and don't seem to address any of the issues. (just things like 'brands' ... 'new flavours'...) I came back to the car and had a message from her which was sent 15 mins after the meeting started saying her kid was ill and she won't be able to make it but the staff member inside could 'take the meeting' and had the info I needed. I then followed this up with an email stating that if they want to meet properly again in the future to let me know and I'll see if I'm in a position to take on the website (my way of saying i don't want to be involved). They wrote back saying they can't afford to wait, and if I can't do the project then I need to pay them back their deposit. I don't feel I should do this as I have done a considerable amount of work already (the initial shoot which included hiring another photographer, plus invested in various ingredients/props which they were going to reimburse) plus i cleared a slot of work for them and had various consultations. My rates now have also risen and I've become busy and after they went MIA it's not fair that I have to drop what I'm doing when it best suit them. Unfortunately though my contract is missing most of it's usual terms and conditions which state that all payments are non refundable and other key agreements. Frustrating i know (i've been really kicking myself) but my honest excuse is that at the time I had a premature baby and when I uploaded the pdf to the portal for them to sign I missed the last 2 pages. (so the original pdf has it but not what they have seen and signed). So Im trying to work out what folks would do here and if they think I could be made to pay the money back. It's just a little over £2k. Thanks

Thanks very much, that's super helpful. I actually didn't get notified of these replies until very late, and I created a new post which goes into more detail as I begin to navigate working with such a large client (nearly £200 million turnover). The worst case and best case makes sense, although these would have to be really loose estimates for the discovery phase in particular as I really don't know what to expect.

Hi all - I've been freelancing as a full stack web dev for well over a decade now and I've been asked to build a site for a large company (turnover nearly £200 million) in what would be my biggest build yet. I've built several smaller things for them which they've been happy with, but I initially haven't chomped at the bit to work with them on the big build just because I know they can be a tricky company to work with (too many moving parts, can take a long time to get anything done), but they have kept coming back to me to do what they can to work on the project, so I hold all the aces. So I am fairly certain I want to carry out the project, but it's a case of me creating the right terms in my contract, which includes the pricing model. To date I have only done fixed cost, but I'm wondering whether charging a day rate makes more sense. I've worked a few contracts before on a day rate, and could treat this the same. The main issues I can see popping up are: - There is quite a bit of discovery to do regarding user requirements, and some technical exploration and proof of concept for back office integrations - In the past the client is very slow to provide feedback or content (they are strangely though excellent payers), and therefore a concern is a project dragging without a milestone payment for some time To me the fixed price/day rate model addresses these in different ways and there's no clear winner; a fixed price allows me more to carry on with some other work if required it seems, and would be more attractive to the client, whereas charging for the day rate means I am never shortchanged. What is more complicated is that they're such a huge company that whatever I quote seems such a pittance if you use any sort of value based pricing model! Another option I have is to actually mix pricing models; so have a fixed cost for the more standard parts of the build (with loads of caveats and a clear build outline in the contract, with a day rate for anything extra) plus have a day rate for the more ambiguous parts and break these out in phases, such as an discovery phase and the technical integration phase. Would love to hear some feedback from what others would do; it's hard when you work for yourself to get some outside perspective and this could be a really huge job, so would really appreciate some input. Thanks! 😊

Hi all - I have a client who are quite a large company who want me to take on a new website build for them. The website also needs to include a lot of customer development, covering some back office integration and connection with some other API's for CRM management and direct debit setup (so not a standard build). I would normally create. a project proposal based on a client's needs with a fixed cost, but in this case coming up with the spec seems a job in and of itself , particularly as client themselves don't know much about the technical side. So I'm thinking I need to quote for an initial consultancy/strategy phase of the project before a proof of concept stage, which is new to me. However by definition as the amount of work is unknown this would need to be at a day rate it seems. I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this, and whether they know a good way of working here and even better terminology. I assume this is done frequently in larger agencies but I just haven't done it myself. Thanks!

There's also been the pull of working for them again; they have some really fun contracts like overseas amusement parks where they fly their contractors etc and the money is good; but if i step away from the lure of that for a moment and see that in one project included a lawsuit, people leaving, severe payment delays, catastrophically bad management and a nervous breakdown from the project manager that should possibly be a warning sign!

Thanks so much for the reply Jack and for taking the time to read my post. One thing I forgot to mention; they did pay me the full amount! At the start of the new year they randomly paid me the outstanding invoice. I'm wondering if that has some sort of legal clout that they were effectively saying my responsibilities are fulfilled. In terms of the legal stuff, I'll look into that; my sister and brother in law are actually quite experienced lawyers but both live overseas; however I've kept them informed along the journey and they believe I've done what was asked of me. I was more concerned about what is the 'industry standard' thing to do; what would other people like me have done in that situation. Yes in hindsight a contract would have been good for both parties, but it was such a small scale job at the start and they were paying a day rate, so I just thought support would be something for them to worry about. You're right about the hardware issue though; I'm a front end dev and as soon as we start talking about PC issues I'm out of my depth. Their argument though would be that they sent me the PC and there were no issues, but again it could be other factors. (I shouldn't have accepted them to send the screen, but they had inferred they'd pay for extra development).

Hi all - I'm in the middle of a very frustrating and increasingly anxious client saga and I would really appreciate some external thought from this awesome community. It's a pretty long story, and I've cut loads out,, but I needed to provide some background too. So for anyone who has the patience to read it; a sincere thank you in advance. ........... In January an agency got in touch with me through a friend to create a touchscreen app for them to use in a museum for a client of theirs. It seemed simple enough; the designs and copy were being provided and they were sending me the exact model of the touchscreen so I could use it for testing (I made sure of this as I know different screens can behave differently.) I was also told an IT team would be on hand at the museum where the screens were to be installed for the period of the project to help test and for any questions etc. Perhaps foolishly I didn't create an actual contract, because as far as I could see it what would needed to have been drafted up was already written out and agreed to in email which is just as legally binding. I started on the project and soon1 screen became 2 screens until I was eventually tasked with producing 18 touchscreen apps. I wasn't really complaining as the money was good, but as a company they were very unprofessional and inefficient. There was no agile or anything like that, and I'd complete an app and then they'd make a change. This along with some other issues on their side massively delayed the project and in the end they got sued by the end client in mid-summer and the project manager had a nervous breakdown and quit, along with another employee that was helping run it. Up until then I'd been invoicing periodically, and they'd been slow paying. But after they were sued they stopped paying, and I (along with other contractors) downed tools until we were paid. During this period the on-site IT team also packed up and left as I believe their contract was up (from what I understand the project was meant to be delivered in April.) Eventually however the agency paid me and I produced another 3 touchscreen apps, they said thanks and i invoiced them, relieved to think it was over. However... I could not get payment for the final 3 apps and was eventually told it was because these final apps I produced were 'freezing'. For weeks I fought to get any kind of detail on this, and I thought it might be a payment delay tactic. The on-site IT team had already left, and I was given the number of the exhibition center to call which is in Norway, so when I'd call their English would be poor and impossible for them to describe the problem. The only person who could speak decent enough English was the manager who was so angry about the previous legal problems they'd had with the agency that he'd just yell at me. They did however eventually send me a video of the screen freezing while using it. If I logged in via Teamviewer I could not force this issue, and I could not replicate it on my version. But it transpired that the 3 touchscreen monitors being used for the 3 final apps were different to the others and different to what I was told and had been sent. My argument was that it could be a touchscreen issue as all the others on the normal monitors are fine and it's essentially the same code with different copy for each app. (HTML/JS in an electron wrapper on PC). They offered to fly me to the center, but I declined as I was worried I'd go there, not be able to replicate the issue, and still be in the same position. So they shipped me the monitor being used for these final 3 'freezing' apps and its massive - like 2m wide massive and completely different to what I was informed was being used - but I managed to set it up in my office to test and try to find this elusive bug (they also sent one of the PC's). But it worked perfectly, and I left it on for days, testing it multiple times and could not find an issue. In the end I set up a monitor next to the touchscreen with devtools on it and set up a camera, and used the touchscreen for 20 minutes straight, going through the whole thing multiple times (including the bit that froze in the video they sent), bashing the screen, using all sorts of weird gestures, just trying to break it but all fine. I sent this to them as an unlisted youtube video stating I can't find the problem and it must lie elsewhere in the environment you're using. My only suggestion was I rebuilt it in something like react native just so it's a totally different app; that way we could help eliminate the root of the problem. They've replied with a very threatening email saying my role is not finished, they are not paying for me to do that, questioning my professionalism and inferring they will get sued again. I'd really like to know what would be the decent & professional thing to do in this situation? What would you consider my responsibility? I was told the screens would have no internet connection, so could not use any testing software (Rollbar etc) to monitor it. There is no on-site I.T team (my friend who is an IT contractor tells me there are loads of environmental factors that could be causing a screen to freeze) and I feel that some of these possible problems go outside my role as a frontend dev. The monitor I was briefed with creating this app for is not being used, without informing me. I cannot physically recreate any problem after hours and hours of testing over the past several months now, and cannot find any bug in any log or in the console. Also, this has now gone on far too long and I informed them while waiting for information about this 'bug' that I was starting a new contract and I'd need to get it wrapped up, but they were slow in getting back and now I'm way outside of the time I said I could give them. I've not put a real timeline in here, but it is often several weeks between being able to get info out of them. Any thoughts would be very much appreciated - and thanks again for reading, I know it's taken your time.

Hi all - I've a developer with a good few years under my belt, but every now and then a situation arises where I really need some outside thoughts from my fellow web people; and now is one of those times! In short I was contracted by an agency to developer a range of touch screens for a tourist exhibit, which I've done over the course of half the year. So my client is the agency and their client is the government department running this exhibit. The first few touch screens were done which I invoiced for but I was paid very very late. In fact, I and a couple of other people working for them downed our tools until they paid, which was about 6 weeks (invoice over 2 months overdue). So once we had been paid I agreed I'd work on the final couple of remaining touchscreens, which I did and I invoiced for. However, they got back to me that a variety of bugs were happening; bugs that made no technical sense and seem impossible. I can dial into the computers remotely that run these screens and I've not been able to replicate the bugs. And when they say the bugs occur, I log in remotely and everything seems fine. I've also extensively tested the screens on my end and even challenged my friends to try to break them and they can't. They've also told me they won't pay me until the apps are running 'bug free' for a 'number of weeks' which leaves me to suspect this is a payment avoidance tactic. Obviously a lesson here is to never release work without payment, even in a situation like this. But once I have screwed up on that matter, are there any suggestions how to handle this? My work is effectively being held to ransom and i have no clear evidence that bugs exist (the features they say are faulty are fine on every other touchscreen and it's the same code) and every time i try to arrange a time for us all to dial in on the machine so they can show me the bug they cancel on me last minute. Many thanks for your help in advance! I truly appreciate it.

Hi, glad you enjoyed your weekend; I spent mine pottering about in the garden, which is always a nice break from webbing! Am I right in saying you are coding within a WYSIWYG text editor in wordpress? If so, the formatting is likely being stripped by the editor. Can you work out what code is being removed if any by comparing your input text and the output text shown in the web inspector?

Hi all - This isn't really an 'introduction' as such, but I couldn't find a more appropriate board to post in. I've been a freelancer for nearly 12 years now, always operating under a company name. And while I have worked with some large brands, I've never employed someone full time, but just contracted people in when necessary. However lately I am considering ditching working under a company name and just using my own name as I feel most people are coming to my company for me anyway, and the company just gets in the way. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or previous experience on this; thought it could be an interesting discussion point. I feel that 10 years ago, it was more common to operate under a business name but now being a freelancer is more common, as we each aim to specialise and build up our personal track records and branding. I've considered going for short-term contracts and only recently had to look at my CV. I noticed that others who freelance under their own name added various clients they'd carried out contracts with in under work history whereas I really could only list my company, which means that although I may have more experience, they looked like they had the better track record as they were able to list all these impressive brands in their employment. I just get the feeling if I went under my own name I'd have more freedom to be able to list my clients in my employers list (even on places like linkedin) but perhaps thats stretching the truth either way? Depends if we class a contract as employment? Thoughts appreciated!

Bootstrap sounds fine for what you want to do - anyone that rubbishes bootstrap is usually coming from a snobbery point of view. At worst it's overkill but at best it saves a bunch of time and gives a proven framework to work with. Those £2k sites sound like a winner though! I'd certainly want to get comfy with bootstrap for that!

I use Atom on my mac if that's any help.

If anyone needs any more advice or info on kirby let me know! It's helped me loads so keen to talk about it! (not paid)

I'd like to throw my hat into the ring and suggest people look at Kirby. It's a low cost license (free for charity or personal projects), flat file (no database so better security), super flexible and has the best support community. I've even used it to build web apps as opposed to websites and it's been perfect. It's written in php so anyone with any templating experience in wordpress or joomla (which is what I've moved from) will be at home. I was tearing my hair out with Joomla in the end due to the bloat and constant security issues, so I tried a bunch of others including most of what's been mentioned above. Kirby won for me, so I'd at least recommend giving it a go!

It sounds like you might be trying to run before you can walk. Becoming a web designer takes time, so it's important to not perhaps start by trying to build a whole website but with small exercises. Online courses on platforms like skill share and treehouse could work with this. But otherwise you could set yourself an initial goal of say learning HTML and breaking that down into smaller goals of building various components of a page. There will be plenty of online courses and as Jennifer says, videos, on the topic. If you try to add css etc you'll be overcomplicating at this stage. Take it slow and steady would be my advice.

I'd advise against randomly submitting content to 'directories' - this is very a old SEO tactic and now isn't only likely to have no affect but to have a negative affect. If you are listed (even through no fault of your own) on any directories/link farms etc that google view as spammy (which is the vast majority) then you will bear the brunt and need to go through and dissociate yourself from these sites using the disavow tool. There's only one tried and proven method: - Make sure you're being crawled by the major search engines - Then earn link banks from reputable website due to a good content strategy Otherwise you will pay the price.

For most people the issue is obviously money, which is why when communicating the value of a website it's best to talk in terms of investment. A website is no less a capital expenditure than an important piece of industrial machinery.

Welcome Jennifer - I've been a member for a while, but really haven't used these forums as much as I should, so am trying to change that. It's easy to forget how helpful being part of a community is, so I look forward to it too!

Thanks so much Jennifer, that really is helpful! ☺️

I have 10 years experience in e-commerece and have used all the major platforms professionally. I'm now a consultant to brands, and find that wanting a store with lots of 'complex' options and capabilities is where most go wrong in choosing what is best for them. 99% of the time people need simplicity, not complexity, they just don't necessarily know it until it's too late.

To help point you in the right direction, you might want to read about tabular content. It might be worth you learning the basics of how that works.

I'm terrible at multitasking, so I listen to podcasts that are more light chat (one of my favourites is adam buxton's show) but I also have a spotify playlist that is more atmospheric music; anything with beats distracts me. I know people that listen to coffee shop ambient noise recordings and countryside stuff and swear by it!

Thanks both for the replies, it's really helpful. I probably didn't make myself clear before; the product really at a stage where I could sell, as behind the scenes it's a little ropey as I've been the only developer that's ever needed to see it (no documentation either etc). Although I could fix all that, it would still take time. And although we have some big names to it, they are all through the one company so I reckon buyers would want to see some diversity of income stream. And finally, the product isn't mine! I've offered to come on board and develop it more and sell it myself and the agreement is I get a bigger cut. But in terms of selling it, at best I'd get a small cut, but again it would require more work to get it to that stage. I understand there's other ways to scale a business up other than funding, but as far as I can see it all requires more responsibility, and more of doing the admin stuff I become a designer not to do, and less of the things I really want to be doing. I like the sentiment of only getting one life - and I just don't want to be doing that with it. I guess what I'm struggling with is am i throwing away a golden opportunity I'll kick myself for later.. I struggle with FOMO anyway. But in reality to make it that golden opportunity would require me giving up the things I love to do and money isn't everything.

Hi all - I'm in the stage of making a big decision regarding my work, and considering I work alone I'd really value some input from other people. I know no one can give me definitive answers etc, but I'd really appreciate some feedback! I'll try to make it short... A few years ago I built a project for a friend which was a recruitment web app. Their plan was to re-sell it to companies which they ended up doing through an agency they connected with. I took a healthy cut each time someone signs up, and over the years we've got some big household names on board. As we've got these big brands on board I wanted to grow the product and really start selling it, however I'm starting to get cold feet. On one hand, people may think I'm crazy not taking advantage of something I have huge brands' names to when loads of people starting SAAS businesses would do anything for that. But the other day I was doing some filming for a group of SAAS directors and they were outlining the day-to-day stuff they deal with, from funding, selling, pitching etc and it really seemed a nightmare. At the moment we don't really need to 'sell the app' as the agency we work with does this for us; so it's really a good balance of not much effort for a good return. However when I work it out, once I go and start selling and sell direct to businesses (we've looked at selling through agencies but that's a closed door for reasons too complicated to outline here) then there's just so much more effort. And also, I'm sure the app would need a lot more care by this point, which would require more people and ultimately more funding. (There's also a few other companies starting to do what we do who have huge teams and investment). And finally, my bread and butter is as a digital strategist for brands, and that is something I love to do. I talked with these saas founders and really thought that wasn't something I wanted to do with my life, even if it made me a lot of money. Can anyone else relate to this. Every time i want to go with my heart I just feel a bit stupid as if I'm giving up on a great opportunity. Thanks so much - appreciate the community support!

Thanks for the replies, all valid thoughts. I think for me in this scenario I'd need to charge quite a bit as that's what the client would almost be expecting, also i do feel that as a multidisciplinary designer they are paying for all of my skills in such a capacity, whereas if I was just shooting a video I'd be using just one skillset. I think that both views make sense, and perhaps its horses for courses. But being asked to use my range of skills in a consultancy role for me feels like a specialist task and something they should be paying extra for and something I deserve to charge more for. Even if I'm spending as long, during that time I do have extra responsibilities to worry about, and in a more traditional workplace this would normally equal a higher salary or wage. Does that make sense?