Just to give you the back ground. I've been building websites for the past year for friends, I love how WordPress works, and enjoyed doing it.

 

We have just moved to a new area because of hubby's job. We've been here 3 months, and he has been signed off with depression.. a whole 'other' story! Anyhoo... I decided to make ends meet (as times are dire) to use my skills and get websites built for local people in our town.

 

It's a lovely place, but people seem to think they can survive without an email - let alone a website!

So a few Facebook posts and conversations, saying exactly why I'm starting the new business, and things looked great. I told people I'm new, I live here, I need a portfolio, so I could build the sites fast and cheaply for them. I had at least 5 or 6 people interested and one particular person, who was first to say yes.

 

She at first, was very open to any ideas I had, she wanted me to register the name, I did, its in my name. I gave her (it makes me shudder) the breakdown of exactly what it would cost me to do the site. She knew everything, the cost of the hosting, the plugins - everything. She knew I was working for ZERO pounds on this site to get it into my portfolio. She agreed that not a word was to be said about the prices, yes - she agreed verbally.. I know what you're thinking... I see it now. There was no contract. I trusted her.

 

She was only paying my costs of £300, for a fully responsive e commerce website, email hosting and unlimited changes.

It took me hours of work.. and I mean hours. I was learning things I've never done before. Up all night most nights, trying new things, watching tutorials, and making her site look fab, as this was the first website I could show people here, and say how good I was.

 

A few weeks in, I realised that her stock was coming, not from the catalogues like she had praised in the meeting before, but instead, trips down to London buying knocked off stock with no labels.. that I'm guessing are returns or last season. She then said about photographing stock.

 

I originally thought it would be supplier photos... yes another major mistake, but no... new stock every week in fact. So she started with asking me to retouch awful stock photos she'd taken on her phone - which I started to do, as I want this site to look amazing. It was starting to be so many hours of work, that all I was doing was working on her site, and not getting others.

 

Then the clanger.

 

All the people locally interested before,all in one day, called me and cancelled. It was surreal. They all said that they weren't interested. I had quoted them only between £500 & £700 for what I was doing for the first business, but they all said they were not interested.

I smelled a rat. I confronted one of these people, in the local supermarket, asked him to be honest. He was embarrassed and said, they were interested until they had heard from 'her' the cost of 'Her' site. Why should they pay more. I tried to explain I couldn't afford to do that again, I just needed one site to get up and running, but it fell on deaf ears.

She had blabbed about the deal.

 

I called her and said this is what has happened. She denied it all saying that she had kept her word. Anyway, it all went horribly wrong after that. She was sending me messages demanding photos be re touched, the site be finished faster, basically treating me awful.

There were royal mail post plugins and extra code, I needed to buy in to get the site running properly.. I had to find the money for this. I explained to her that to finish things it would be another another £100 towards this £300 bill I had to pay to get it all finished.. which she kicked off.

She accused me of bullying her out of money that she was unaware of.. and wasn't going to pay. So I told her the site would not get finished, as I couldn't afford it. After two days of her being awful to me on email.. she paid. I was £200 out of pocket, but I swiftly got the site finished, handed her the passwords to emails, and paypal logins etc, but only put her on the site as a shop keeper. I was still the administrator.

 

Bearing in mind - I've not done this before.. I was unsure on how to handover a site so I was still in control - I needed this in my portfolio. She agreed this fact at the beginning.

 

Anyway - so sorry to waffle! But today I got her husband knocking my door, telling us to stay away from her and her shop, with a written letter saying because of irrevocable breakdowns, she wants the Admin login and hosting passwords, as a new designer four miles away is taking over. If I fail to agree, she will take a legal route.

 

I'm sorry for the long post. I'm new to this, I took her for her word. The site is amazing, I'm so proud of it and I just feel so let down. There was no contract signed. I understand her need for the admin login, which I would have given - I think yet Google search tells me otherwise! But I know once this is given, my blood sweat and tears will be signed to a stranger now and they will have this on their portfolio, not mine.

 

Meanwhile, my name in our new local town is mud because of her, they think I am a rip off merchant.

 

Any advice would be very much appreciated. She is saying I have until the 29th March to respond or its court papers.

This is doing nothing for or struggle to make a living, my husbands depression, or my name as a designer.

 

Would be great to hear what people thought.. like I said I'm new..I know I've made fatal errors.. but what do I do now?

 

Regards

Jules

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thankyou for the reply.. so appreciated.. ive no one to ask for advice.. shes paid the money.. but I'm still out of pocket - she knows this but she has not paid what the site has

cost me, and I'm looking at my site being taken away from me - and me being left with a bad name.. surely that isn't right? I will happily hand it over to her at a cost to get her out of my life, and move on. She has ruined my chances of being a designer here locally, so is that what I should do? The domain is in my name, there was no contract, Im not a nasty person at all... just want this sorted. The verbal agreement was I build her a site for my portfolio, if i give her logins for Admin.. ive now lost everything.. or have I? .. seen this...does this count? https://ipo.blog.gov.uk/2014/12/04/do-i-own-my-website/

Edited March 25, 20179 yr by jules69

Don't give her access. Don't hand over anything.

 

Don't do anymore work on the site.

 

She hasn't ruined anything, she has just made things a little awkward. If you go back to those prospects and talk to them you may well get a second chance.

This is why you never work for free or at a nock down price. To build a portfolio you are better off building a mock site to show what you are capable of.

 

When you offer dirt cheap prices the only kind of clients you will find are those who want something for nothing and do not respect you or your work. The kind of clients you do want will be put off because if a product is good then it will have a price tag to suit.

People associate price with quality and expertise. It can be hard to get initial client testimonies and so forth but there are other ways to land those first clients - confidence in yourself and your ability.

 

In my last job our sales actually went up when we increased prices - they were already quite high but we went to being the most expensive agency in the region. We were able to back that up with our work, but also new clients were attracted because they wanted the best - better than what their competitors had.

 

Your job is as a freelancer is as much a salesperson as it is a designer if you dislike that aspect or feel your real talent lies purely in design then you'd be better off getting a job in the industry rather than freelancing.

 

I'd walk away from the current situation and use it as a learning experience. Don't give this client access, you've been taken advantage of. Return the money and draw a line under it. Withholding that will increase stress which is far worse than a small amount of money.

Edited March 26, 20179 yr by rbrtsmith

Hi Jules,

 

If I was you, I'd give her a refund and let someone else start from scratch. You'll keep your reputation and dignity intact, (I appreciate your side of the situation is in the right!). At the end of it all, this is just a small local area and there's a whole world of potential clients beyond it, build your own business website and go looking for work beyond the village borders... Onwards and upwards!

A contract and project scope will go a long way in terms of preventing these issues, both are essential for freelancers. I also think an e-commerce site is a lot for a beginner to take on, and a lot to maintain going forward. The agency I work at hates doing e-commerce, I think we only launched 1 e-commerce site last year. Not only is there a lot of moving parts to it, without a decent on-going budget for marketing the client won't see any return on investment. Essentially, If you build it, they won't come.

 

I personally think you would be better off building smaller brochure sites for the time being. Not only can most of them be built static, they can be built considerably faster and will help improve cash flow. A portfolio is still essential, even if it's just mock projects for now, but it will give you something you can approach businesses with.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that considering there's no contract, you own the work? I'm not 100% on that. Or how it would stand up legally given she's given you payment.

 

Putting the details in your name to start with is a bit shady. Domain names at least should always be in the client's name, and hosting too unless you're a reseller. However, since you own the domain, there's not much they can really do about that so you could maybe negotiate some things from there if they want to keep it.

 

It sounds like there was a lot of scope-creep, with the photo retouching particularly.

 

The necessity of having a contract has already been discussed, so I won't say any more about that here.

 

Unfortunately it's not really the client's job to pay for you to learn skills you don't have, so while it's admirable that you went out of your way to do that it's not really relevant unless it was part of the creep.

 

It's hard to deal with now as it's fresh, but even if you read every bad client story in the book, you'll still go out and make mistakes. It will get easier. Pass it off as a learning experience. Going local if you live in a small town only has a limited lifespan anyway, particularly as people in your area seem to be so budget-driven, so it's not the end of the world. Going a step up with what you look for knowledge-wise from your clients would help - people need to already recognise the value of having a website without you needing to convince them.

 

Agree with what NaN said about smaller sites. An easily adaptable framework can make a huge difference, especially as everything always takes longer than you originally think.

 

If you're looking to build a portfolio, start with people you already know and trust and have a proper agreement about what they can expect and what they're allowed to change until you've built up a few clients (adjust the price accordingly for that favour). Then do the maths and calculate something reasonable for your actual clients. If you're not so confident it can help to have an hourly rate (which opens you up to more than just full website/design projects too), and give an estimated number of hours plus optional extras for revisions.

Edited March 27, 20179 yr by designgem

Hi The information on here has been fantastic thank you so so much! Its great to hear all the advice, and to know I wasn't a complete idiot - like the client is making me out to be.

I've ignored her nasty emails for a couple days, which no doubt she will be hopping about, but just needed to get my thoughts together on what to do. If I had the money and it wasn't a problem, I would refund her now, and then let her go and find a fully e-commerce site with someone else. She may just have to wait for her refund til I'm on my feet. She is still hassling me to get the new designer she hs found to have all the logins, he himslf has sent me an email requesting these too.. Ive ignored that for now.

I have learnt a lot, not only on the business side of things, but how people actually treat others. She was so nice at the beginning of this venture, and encouraged me to get a portfolio together by asking her friends to get a site built. Then she blabbed the cost, with no contract! - Big lesson learned.

So many great tips on here of what to do, has made me feel more confident to move forward.

Thank goodness I found you guys on this site!

Hi Guys.. need advice again... is this woman for real?! I have tried to call this woman saying that I will refund her the cost of the website as and when I can afford it (she only paid me for the basic cost of the build) I made no money out of her and she cost me business locally. PLEASE let me know what you think of the below from her!

 

 

Following your lack of response to the letter which you signed for on Monday 3rd April 2017. I have called once again, Trading Standards they are very aware of the situation. I have spoken with my solicitor, his best advice to you is to quite simply provide the requested information immediately to avoid yourself legal costs. As you are in breach of contact under the Supply of Goods and Services Act.

As a gesture of goodwill I am willing to forgo my full refund (offered by you on the 13th January 2017) “if anything you don’t like it, the full amount will be refunded, no problems”

for the information requested for a second time in my letter dated the 31st of March 2017.

All I ask for are the log in details for the back end of the site so I can then forward on to Stuart for the professional completion.

As you are aware, I have a competition running the entry form to which is downloadable from my website.

I am sure you don’t want to be responsible for any negative feedback on social media.

I trust you will be reasonable with the above and be at pains to remedy the situation.

Any advice on how to shut this woman up I cant afford to pay her, and out of principle now, she is not having the website. Am I wrong?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that considering there's no contract, you own the work? I'm not 100% on that. Or how it would stand up legally given she's given you payment.

 

Putting the details in your name to start with is a bit shady. Domain names at least should always be in the client's name, and hosting too unless you're a reseller. However, since you own the domain, there's not much they can really do about that so you could maybe negotiate some things from there if they want to keep it.

 

It sounds like there was a lot of scope-creep, with the photo retouching particularly.

 

The necessity of having a contract has already been discussed, so I won't say any more about that here.

 

Unfortunately it's not really the client's job to pay for you to learn skills you don't have, so while it's admirable that you went out of your way to do that it's not really relevant unless it was part of the creep.

 

It's hard to deal with now as it's fresh, but even if you read every bad client story in the book, you'll still go out and make mistakes. It will get easier. Pass it off as a learning experience. Going local if you live in a small town only has a limited lifespan anyway, particularly as people in your area seem to be so budget-driven, so it's not the end of the world. Going a step up with what you look for knowledge-wise from your clients would help - people need to already recognise the value of having a website without you needing to convince them.

 

Agree with what NaN said about smaller sites. An easily adaptable framework can make a huge difference, especially as everything always takes longer than you originally think.

 

If you're looking to build a portfolio, start with people you already know and trust and have a proper agreement about what they can expect and what they're allowed to change until you've built up a few clients (adjust the price accordingly for that favour). Then do the maths and calculate something reasonable for your actual clients. If you're not so confident it can help to have an hourly rate (which opens you up to more than just full website/design projects too), and give an estimated number of hours plus optional extras for revisions.

Please can you look at the post I just made.. she has sent me an email and Im unsure on how to respond :-(

Don't give her access.

 

You aren't in breach of anything. You have delivered the website as agreed. Trading standards won't get involved and there are no legal costs.

 

If she wants a copy of the site you can provide that less any bespoke code you have written (it belongs to you) and any edited images (the alterations belong to you). If she wants the copy she has to pay for it.

 

I've been in this situation before and they threaten loads but you are the owner of the code not her. All she did was pay for your services.

Don't give her access.

 

You aren't in breach of anything. You have delivered the website as agreed. Trading standards won't get involved and there are no legal costs.

 

If she wants a copy of the site you can provide that less any bespoke code you have written (it belongs to you) and any edited images (the alterations belong to you). If she wants the copy she has to pay for it.

 

I've been in this situation before and they threaten loads but you are the owner of the code not her. All she did was pay for your services.

Hi Fisicx

She did pay the £300 tho.. I dont have it to refund her as it was all used (and more of my own personal money) to build the site. Do you think its unreasonable to offer her a full refund (I did say this in my very first email to her if she wasnt happy) minus the extra hours I have put in on top of building the site? Which at £30 or £40 an hour - is only approx 7.5 hours of work.. and I did way more than that in time for her, for free.

I'd refund the money and not give access or provide a copy of the site less the bespoke code if she pays for your time to create the copy.

 

All she owns is the material she provided. Everything else belongs to you - including the domain name (because it's registered in your name).

I'd refund the money and not give access or provide a copy of the site less the bespoke code if she pays for your time to create the copy.

 

All she owns is the material she provided. Everything else belongs to you - including the domain name (because it's registered in your name).

Oh.. sounds complicated.. just still learning.. wouldnt know how to provide her with a copy minus the code.. that sounds like an excellent idea, and would give me complete closure. Being so new at designing - its hard to know who to ask for help :-(

I see several very important points here

 

1) don't worry about her threats, the law is not as linear as this person makes out.

2) unfortunately, it sounds as if she has some form of written confirmation that you will refund her money, the question is whether you have 'agreed' with her in that sense that the website is not up to standard

 

Note: when I say 'up to standard' there is no real measure of what 'standard' is, so if the website runs well in multiple browsers without fault, then you could say it is up to standards of quality required by a reasonably competent person. (Trading standards will look at the competency of the overall work)

 

3) The code and all the content belong to you, until/unless under certain conditions

3a) That the website AND content has been transferred by written agreement

3b) You have specifically agreed that the transfer is completed (in writing) and the job is signed off (verbally or written down - although written down is best)

3c) That the content (usually only parts) was supplied by the customer and even if all the content was supplied by the customer you still own the website code and therefore control who has .. whatever ... see next point.

 

..whatever.. means: when you transfer a website, that does not necessarily mean they 'own' all the code and the content, unless agreed they will 'own' the content and coding (see next note) specifically you are 'leasing' it to them with the right to use it, which basically means you can withdraw that right at any time if they breach your conditions of use (like a verbal or written part of a contract)

 

Note: Content that you did not create belongs to whoever created it unless you are licensed by them that you 'own' the intellectual property and can even 'sell' it as your own if you wanted, this is any CMS or plugin for example, even you, most the time are 'leased' that code and licensed to use it as the owner specified.

 

As you already know, a contract would make these things much clearer, and even if you receive threats from an actual solicitor, that does not mean you should roll over and play dead, it is only £300 and any claim would go through a small claims court, it is not as scary as you think, you seem quite capable so you could check the letter of the law here http://www.legislation.gov.uk and make the judge listen by quoting one or two intellectual property laws like the intellectual property act 2014 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/18/contents but this woman sounds as if she is full of hot air, but the decision is yours.

I also suggest you don't give her or anyone the login details!

 

When you can, give her a refund and you get to keep everything else for your future and portfolio, etc.

I'm sure you'd kick yourself if you handed it all over and ended up with nothing to show for it, either now or sometime in the future, especially if you like the work you have created.

If you have a record of your costs, to keep as a reference if necessary, then hold onto that.

 

Caring what other people think is one of the main reasons most people don't take chances and do what they really want. 80% of people live in quiet desperation, so there's no need to rush to please them, or especially join them.

 

I'm curious how old your husband is? I am planning on making some YouTube videos on various topics, especially stuff which 'men' are not encouraged to talk about, and although I don't consider myself depressed, I am 48 and very much understand the philosophical thoughts and feelings one goes through as one ages.

 

Don't forget to get plenty of fresh air and escape the confines and walls of the home, to get a clearer perspective of the bigger picture and possibilities. Nature is so important on a regular basis.

 

I like watching people like Brian Tracy when I want to be ambitious, and Infinite Waters (Diving Deep) to remind myself of how simple things can be.

 

I wonder what inspires your husband (what does he like doing?) PM me about him if you like? If he needs to chat or go over anything, there's always Skype and I'm always happy to help out, if possible. No fee, just my cup of tea.

 

Good luck!

Edited April 6, 20179 yr by Grant Barker

I see several very important points here

 

1) don't worry about her threats, the law is not as linear as this person makes out.

2) unfortunately, it sounds as if she has some form of written confirmation that you will refund her money, the question is whether you have 'agreed' with her in that sense that the website is not up to standard

 

Note: when I say 'up to standard' there is no real measure of what 'standard' is, so if the website runs well in multiple browsers without fault, then you could say it is up to standards of quality required by a reasonably competent person. (Trading standards will look at the competency of the overall work)

 

3) The code and all the content belong to you, until/unless under certain conditions

3a) That the website AND content has been transferred by written agreement

3b) You have specifically agreed that the transfer is completed (in writing) and the job is signed off (verbally or written down - although written down is best)

3c) That the content (usually only parts) was supplied by the customer and even if all the content was supplied by the customer you still own the website code and therefore control who has .. whatever ... see next point.

 

..whatever.. means: when you transfer a website, that does not necessarily mean they 'own' all the code and the content, unless agreed they will 'own' the content and coding (see next note) specifically you are 'leasing' it to them with the right to use it, which basically means you can withdraw that right at any time if they breach your conditions of use (like a verbal or written part of a contract)

 

Note: Content that you did not create belongs to whoever created it unless you are licensed by them that you 'own' the intellectual property and can even 'sell' it as your own if you wanted, this is any CMS or plugin for example, even you, most the time are 'leased' that code and licensed to use it as the owner specified.

 

As you already know, a contract would make these things much clearer, and even if you receive threats from an actual solicitor, that does not mean you should roll over and play dead, it is only £300 and any claim would go through a small claims court, it is not as scary as you think, you seem quite capable so you could check the letter of the law here http://www.legislation.gov.uk and make the judge listen by quoting one or two intellectual property laws like the intellectual property act 2014 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/18/contents but this woman sounds as if she is full of hot air, but the decision is yours.

Hi This is what I acutally put into her first email:

 

"In the excitement of talking about the design, I didn't really talk about the cost of setting up. Big apologies, my error! Most designers will be charging 50% of the total site upfront, which with the quality of what I will be doing will be over £1200+. But I need my portfolio up and running, and as long as you love the site once complete, all I ask is if you could recommend me to others, and not mention the price! The upfront costs are just what its going to cost me. If anything you don't like it, the full amount will be refunded, no problems. "

 

She mentioned the price so broke this agreement. The site is running beautifully and i am very proud of it.

Shes got the local Chamber of Trade involved now, a meeting infront of the whole town without me knowing happened a few days ago, slating my customer service and my work. They emailed me directly asking me to sort it out, and in my anger I sent this to them:

"Could you please let her know that we will be refunding the cost of the site back to her, minus my extra hourly costs, which I will heavily discount for her, and also we will de-register the domain name, as she clearly is not happy. "

 

Now I feel as if I should have waited until I saw your reply - bugger! I've hung myself out to dry now havent I? She is the most obnoxious person I have met. And it feels like I am being bullied into refunding or handing the site over or else her 'veiled threat' of 'I am sure you don’t want to be responsible for any negative feedback on social media'. feels like she will hound me.

 

If i refund her minus my extra hours which are LOTS, and i can account for them all, then technically she wont be entitled to anything will she? This is what i thought in my hour of rage!

Edited April 6, 20179 yr by jules69

Just refund what she has paid. Don't remove the extra hours as this will just cause more grief. She is a vindictive woman so don't antagonise her more.

 

Take a backup of the site and the second you issue the refund put up a 'this site has been removed' message.

 

Then contact the COC and explain the situation. Be factual and make it clear you had fullfilled all your obligation and that you will be taking action to restore your damaged reputation (as her comments were libelous).

 

We spoke on the phone about options, happy to take your call again if you want more reassurance.

Edited April 6, 20179 yr by fisicx

Just refund what she has paid. Don't remove the extra hours as this will just cause more grief. She is a vindictive woman so don't antagonise her more.

 

Take a backup of the site and the second you issue the refund put up a 'this site has been removed' message.

 

Then contact the COC and explain the situation. Be factual and make it clear you had fullfilled all your obligation and that you will be taking action to restore your damaged reputation (as her comments were libelous).

 

We spoke on the phone about options, happy to take your call again if you want more reassurance.

If i had the money to refund her i would.. it was all used in the build :-( I want my company name restored & Yes you are right about her being vindictive.. I want to so desperately take the site down - Her comment of:

"As a gesture of goodwill I am willing to forgo my full refund (offered by you on the 13th January 2017) “if anything you don’t like it, the full amount will be refunded, no problems”

Gesture of goodwill!! This tells me she has actually realised to get a site like I have built with someone else, is going to cost her so much more. Awful woman.

So your predicament is really about the money. Can you get a loan or borrow the money?

 

Whatever happens don't give her access to the site and don't transfer anything. I know I suggested this might be an option but on reflection it's just going to cause you a whole load of pain. What you need is got get hold of the money and refund her.

 

But I'd also contact the Chamber of Commerce today and talk to them. Once they realise what this woman has done they may well side with you in the matter.

The person you're dealign with sounds more like a con artist to be honest, and probably had no intention of ever paying. It's extremely common for people like this to just threaten legal action because nobody wants to get caught up the hassle and expense, and very few people understand the law. I would call trading standards yourself and ask if they've spoke to this woman, and give your side of the story. Then you'll have a better idea of where you stand. If she's purposely trying to out your business she's bordering on slander, you delivered a working product and tried to remedy the situation as best you can, at this stage it's just a personal attack against your business.

So your predicament is really about the money. Can you get a loan or borrow the money?

 

Whatever happens don't give her access to the site and don't transfer anything. I know I suggested this might be an option but on reflection it's just going to cause you a whole load of pain. What you need is got get hold of the money and refund her.

 

But I'd also contact the Chamber of Commerce today and talk to them. Once they realise what this woman has done they may well side with you in the matter.

The actual domain name is registered in my husbands name not mine.. so its up to him to decide if he wants to transfer it isn't it? I dont want her having the domain name either. We are going to try to get the money together... if she hadnt of gossiped about the price of the site, I would have had three local websites at least on the go now, and the funds to refund the witch.

Edited April 6, 20179 yr by jules69

Hi This is what I acutally put into her first email:

 

"In the excitement of talking about the design, I didn't really talk about the cost of setting up. Big apologies, my error! Most designers will be charging 50% of the total site upfront, which with the quality of what I will be doing will be over £1200+. But I need my portfolio up and running, and as long as you love the site once complete, all I ask is if you could recommend me to others, and not mention the price! The upfront costs are just what its going to cost me. If anything you don't like it, the full amount will be refunded, no problems. "

 

She mentioned the price so broke this agreement. The site is running beautifully and i am very proud of it.

Shes got the local Chamber of Trade involved now, a meeting infront of the whole town without me knowing happened a few days ago, slating my customer service and my work. They emailed me directly asking me to sort it out, and in my anger I sent this to them:

"Could you please let her know that we will be refunding the cost of the site back to her, minus my extra hourly costs, which I will heavily discount for her, and also we will de-register the domain name, as she clearly is not happy. "

 

Now I feel as if I should have waited until I saw your reply - bugger! I've hung myself out to dry now havent I? She is the most obnoxious person I have met. And it feels like I am being bullied into refunding or handing the site over or else her 'veiled threat' of 'I am sure you don’t want to be responsible for any negative feedback on social media'. feels like she will hound me.

 

If i refund her minus my extra hours which are LOTS, and i can account for them all, then technically she wont be entitled to anything will she? This is what i thought in my hour of rage!

 

You have a good argument for acceptance under duress, it sounds to me as if you should be the one to take her to court, if I were you, I would not yield to anything more, tell her the website does not belong to her, she made an agreement of which she has broken, that was a contract, she broke it, if you purchased things with her £300, sent her them, plugins, pictures etc, and only them, the website is yours.

 

This meeting they had sounds like a lynch mob, and if this continues, I would go to the police for harassment, the police won't do anything about the money or the issue, but they certainly should give her a warning reguarding her behaviour.

Hi This is what I acutally put into her first email:

 

"In the excitement of talking about the design, I didn't really talk about the cost of setting up. Big apologies, my error! Most designers will be charging 50% of the total site upfront, which with the quality of what I will be doing will be over £1200+. But I need my portfolio up and running, and as long as you love the site once complete, all I ask is if you could recommend me to others, and not mention the price! The upfront costs are just what its going to cost me. If anything you don't like it, the full amount will be refunded, no problems. "

 

She mentioned the price so broke this agreement. The site is running beautifully and i am very proud of it.

Shes got the local Chamber of Trade involved now, a meeting infront of the whole town without me knowing happened a few days ago, slating my customer service and my work. They emailed me directly asking me to sort it out, and in my anger I sent this to them:

"Could you please let her know that we will be refunding the cost of the site back to her, minus my extra hourly costs, which I will heavily discount for her, and also we will de-register the domain name, as she clearly is not happy. "

 

Now I feel as if I should have waited until I saw your reply - bugger! I've hung myself out to dry now havent I? She is the most obnoxious person I have met. And it feels like I am being bullied into refunding or handing the site over or else her 'veiled threat' of 'I am sure you don’t want to be responsible for any negative feedback on social media'. feels like she will hound me.

 

If i refund her minus my extra hours which are LOTS, and i can account for them all, then technically she wont be entitled to anything will she? This is what i thought in my hour of rage!

They have a word for this in the USA and it's called slander. Basically when someone goes around purposely tainting your good name with allegations that are not at all true which I'm sure you know what slander is but Wikipedia explains it as...

 

 

 

Under common law, to constitute defamation, a claim must generally be false and must have been made to someone other than the person defamed. Some common law jurisdictions also distinguish between spoken defamation, called slander, and defamation in other media such as printed words or images, called libel.

 

Anyways I don't know the law in the UK but here we would take legal action regarding such a thing so after you refund the money I would also highly consider legal action toward her.

*UPDATE*

Just thought Id share with you guys what the latest letter from her.. Ive ignored her for a couple days a) because I have been very poorly and sorting the cash for a full refund to her.. check out what she has put below! Still trying to call the shots on what is my work! Unbelievable!

Be great to hear your thoughts.. and what you would put in response to this utter nonsense! :-)

Thank you for taking the time to respond to the Chamber of Trade.

I am not clear what you mean by ‘deregistering’ the domain name ..This implies that you will be releasing the domain name into the public realm. I would prefer for you to transfer the domain to my own hosting account, so that I may take ownership. I would not expect you to refund my registration fee in this regard. Therefore please could you let me know exactly what your plan is for the domain name.

That leaves the question of the existing website, as I don’t understand what you intend to do with it. Are you going to take it down? If not then I really would need Wordpress admin access in order that I can ask the new web designer to implement some changes in order to allow me to run the site as I wish. If you wish to retain ownership of the website and are still unwilling to allow the new designer to have an admin account then I cannot implement the changes that I would like to make in order to trade online and therefore the website will be of little use to me and I would be forced to start again with a brand new website, which then means it is worthless to both of us.

I understand that you have concerns with the ownership of the site and would like to assure you that I have no intention of removing your design credit from the site, nor ask the new web designer to take any credit for it. He is being asked purely to assist with configuring the site and provide ongoing training and will not be using the site in his portfolio. I would like to suggest that we can agree to keep your design credit and weblink at the foot of the website for a minimum period of 12 months. That should provide you with ample opportunity to use the site as part of your portfolio to help gain other business.

It has been drawn to my attention that the text “owned by *your web design” at the foot of the site could imply that you are the owners of my business and run the shop yourselves. When we take ownership of the site I would remove this part of the text, keeping your credit as above, of course.

If you are happy to release the site then you can transfer the hosting to my own hosting account. I would not expect to receive a refund for the web hosting costs I have paid.

If you could tell me what your explicit plans are for both the domain name and website then I hope we can both draw line under recent events and move forward.

Don't release it, don't give it to her, remove the theme if it is Wordpress and tell her to get her new developer to do it.

Don't give her anything. Just refund her money and ignore all other requests and demands.

URGENT UPDATE!!

Hi everyone... I know I have had such brilliant advice on here... but I need more as I am completely gob smacked at what has happened!! I have since agreed with this evil woman to pay her back £50 a month... it was her suggestion as she sent me an email saying Im a new business etc etc... as she said that she was going to get a new site built. I agreed. Ive taken my website down until Ive paid her back.

The new site went live today. She has bought the .com version of the name I bought... and the new designer has copied to the exact same - my website!!! To the absolute of copying my logo.. my wording my edited (royalty free photos) the layout the shop the colours the total look and feel of my website.. they look near enough identical - everything..

What do I do?

What do I say to this new designer and to her? .

She has ripped my website off totally all my hard work for weeks out there copied everything... Im stunned that this can happen. I need advice on where I stand from you guys before I get legal advice.. This surely can not be right?

This whole thing has left me feeling unwell and my work has been copied.. and ive lost money and business from all this... surely this isnt right?

Edited May 17, 20179 yr by jules69

Doing a little research I found this one bit of advice

 

 

 

If you don’t hear back from the website owner after a few days, you can always contact their ISP to request that it take the website down. If you can provide proof that the design is yours and that they aren’t licensed to use it, many ISPs will suspend the website to avoid being sucked into litigation should you decide to sue.

 

the full article with more advice is right here https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/12/my-website-design-was-stolen-now-what/

 

I also recommend you send a formal email to the websites host with proof of ownership. You can find out the host by using this tool http://www.whoishostingthis.com/ and if all else fails get a lawyer. They will send formal email to the owner that if the site is not taken down then they will face further legal action.

Edited May 18, 20179 yr by webdesigner93

Hi

She has put on a facebook post who the website designer is, bought the domain name in her name and I know who is hosting the new site. I have contacted the hosting company - based in India via chat! They are looking into it and will get back to me... god knows when.

 

Just a question though.. apart from the fact that the websites look identical, and mine has in the footer that it is copyrighted and owned by our business name, how do I prove all the work on it was mine in the first place, and show proof of ownership?

I have back up files of the site, all the images used on it are royalty free ones, but edited and resized by me. The logo is a font that can be bought online by anyone. There is photoshop work that i have done on the site, that has clearly been copied, and all the text is the same as mine. I own the web domain, this was never transferred.

 

I have written to the new designer asking him to take the site down as it is infringing on copyright laws, so will see what happens. Just want to get all my ducks in a row, and the advice on here has helped me so much - thank you!

Just a question though.. apart from the fact that the websites look identical, and mine has in the footer that it is copyrighted and owned by our business name, how do I prove all the work on it was mine in the first place, and show proof of ownership?

 

I'd say the emails between you along with the original files (PSD, TXT etc) with dates and times plus the original domain in your control should suffice. The new .com would have been registered afterwards and if your version of site was live then a google search site:http://domain.co.uk would bring up pages which were cached and when.

How did they manage to copy the site? I thought you were going to take the site down.

 

However, this is where you should begin: https://www.gov.uk/topic/intellectual-property/copyright

The site was down, which says to me she had the new designer working on his all the time she was arguing with me about payment, when it was live a few weeks ago.

 

https://www.gov.uk/using-somebody-elses-intellectual-property this part is great! Thank you! I just cant believe some people... I wouldnt dream of doing what she has to anyone.

Edited May 18, 20179 yr by jules69

I'm sorry to hear about this. It happens more often than you'd know, which is why I stress so much about contracts. Sure, they're annoying and at times seem intimidating, but they will save you ass when, to put it bluntly, **** hits the fan.

If this were me, I'd make it public. I have 90% of my clients as Facebook friends on my business profile. I'd make a statement and clear the air. Some may disagree, but that's me. That's how I deal with things.

As for needing work in your portfolio, never take work that will cost you more than you will make. If you want to do free work to build your portfolio (which as much as people say don't, it's worked wonders for me) - Never be out of pocket.

You can also do what my friend does, which I think was a smart move. Build templates and sell them from your own website. That way you have work to show, and you can still make money from those if people wish to buy those templates!

Hope you get it all sorted!

Just to keep you informed this is what I have had from the new website designer......

 

Very many thanks for contacting me.

 

I am somewhat concerned that you are misinformed about your “exclusive copyright” with regards towww.*****.co.uk. So please let me verify a few details.

 

First of all no files were copied from your server. There’s no need for me to do this as installation of a Wordpress/Woocommerce website not only takes literally minutes to do, anyone has permission to do so. This is how the new website (www.*****.com) was put together. You have no copyright claim over any Wordpress or Woocommerce installation, and your website has not been plagiarised as a result of installing Wordpress and Woocommerce.

 

Secondly the template that you installed (Organica by Template Monster) is bound by various terms and conditions as part of the license that you paid for (be assured that I have a valid licence for the same template). I would direct you to their website for specific copyright clarification:https://www.templatemonster.com/help/copyright-template-usage. The following two sections are especially relevant:

 

If I buy a template, do I have exclusive ownership of it?

You will get exclusive ownership only in case purchasing the template by unique price, and you will get it on your customized website, as for original template files, copyright remains ours.

 

Will I hold the copyright to a finished website?

The initial design copyright remains with the original template designer. If royalty-free images are used within the template, the copyright for those images remains with the original photographer or illustrator. Any text and original images which you include on your pages belong exclusively to you and you hold the copyright on those items.

 

Thirdly you hold no copyright over the content of the website (pictures, text, product information etc). The pictures were taken by ****, and text on the product information and other pages was written by her, therefore you hold no legal claim over any of this as copyright remains with the photographer and text copyright is with the original author.

 

I therefore find that your claim to “exclusive copyright” of www.*****co.uk is misleading at best. In fact, the text “****… …is owned by ***** Web Design” at the footer of that website is wholly inappropriate and implies that ***** actually own the ***** business.

 

You have already been asked to take the www.******.co.uk down as it is no longer the official website of **** (Place name) and I see no reason why you shouldn’t comply. However, if you choose to keep the www.*****.co.uk site online I would recommend that you immediately remove all of the text and image content from the www.*****co.uk website to avoid copyright breach as outlined above. *** will formally request that you do so.

 

In summary you have no copyright claim over the new website, www.*****.com, your accusations of plagiarism and theft are baseless and it is you who is in breach of copyright by having ****** content on your website without permission.

 

On a personal note, common sense should prevail in this matter, and therefore you must accept that you **** is no longer your client, and as a result you do not have the authority to run their website and therefore you really ought to take it offline, chalk up the whole matter to experience and move on.

 

Kind regards

 

******

 

Just to keep you informed this is what I have had from the new website designer......

 

Very many thanks for contacting me.

 

I am somewhat concerned that you are misinformed about your “exclusive copyright” with regards towww.*****.co.uk. So please let me verify a few details.

 

First of all no files were copied from your server. There’s no need for me to do this as installation of a Wordpress/Woocommerce website not only takes literally minutes to do, anyone has permission to do so. This is how the new website (www.*****.com) was put together. You have no copyright claim over any Wordpress or Woocommerce installation, and your website has not been plagiarised as a result of installing Wordpress and Woocommerce.

 

Secondly the template that you installed (Organica by Template Monster) is bound by various terms and conditions as part of the license that you paid for (be assured that I have a valid licence for the same template). I would direct you to their website for specific copyright clarification:https://www.templatemonster.com/help/copyright-template-usage. The following two sections are especially relevant:

 

If I buy a template, do I have exclusive ownership of it?

You will get exclusive ownership only in case purchasing the template by unique price, and you will get it on your customized website, as for original template files, copyright remains ours.

 

Will I hold the copyright to a finished website?

The initial design copyright remains with the original template designer. If royalty-free images are used within the template, the copyright for those images remains with the original photographer or illustrator. Any text and original images which you include on your pages belong exclusively to you and you hold the copyright on those items.

 

Thirdly you hold no copyright over the content of the website (pictures, text, product information etc). The pictures were taken by ****, and text on the product information and other pages was written by her, therefore you hold no legal claim over any of this as copyright remains with the photographer and text copyright is with the original author.

 

I therefore find that your claim to “exclusive copyright” of www.*****co.uk is misleading at best. In fact, the text “****… …is owned by ***** Web Design” at the footer of that website is wholly inappropriate and implies that ***** actually own the ***** business.

 

You have already been asked to take the www.******.co.uk down as it is no longer the official website of **** (Place name) and I see no reason why you shouldn’t comply. However, if you choose to keep the www.*****.co.uk site online I would recommend that you immediately remove all of the text and image content from the www.*****co.uk website to avoid copyright breach as outlined above. *** will formally request that you do so.

 

In summary you have no copyright claim over the new website, www.*****.com, your accusations of plagiarism and theft are baseless and it is you who is in breach of copyright by having ****** content on your website without permission.

 

On a personal note, common sense should prevail in this matter, and therefore you must accept that you **** is no longer your client, and as a result you do not have the authority to run their website and therefore you really ought to take it offline, chalk up the whole matter to experience and move on.

 

Kind regards

 

******

 

 

Wait so you didn't design the template? if that's so then that kinda changes things all together

Like I said.. naive.. now feeling stupid and gutted... I am learning from the bottom... this was my first website.

Like I said.. naive.. now feeling stupid and gutted... I am learning from the bottom... this was my first website.

Tbh i understand it's a bummer but I would just comply and remove the website and then continue to payback the remainder you owe her. And then just put all of this behind you. And move on with a new site

I would advise in the future to build bespoke websites. As for e-commerce stay well away from WordPress, there are other platforms better suited to this. But as a beginner I wouldn't advise taking on e-commerce, start with brochure style websites as you build up experience. Building bespoke sites from scratch will force you to learn how to code - which to become a professional in this industry you must be able to do.

I hope the above doesn't come across as too harsh, but there is in my opinion a pre-resequite level of competency before being able to sell yourself to clients as a web developer or designer - the same as any professional. If I hired an electrician I'd expect them to have a good understanding of what they're doing
There are many good resources to learn from and if you want we can direct you to some of those. Lastly there's nothing wrong in telling a client you are inexperienced in a particular area - say e-commerce. Honesty is the best policy as the last thing you will want to do is to promise a feature for a client then be unable to deliver.

Edited May 19, 20179 yr by rbrtsmith

I would advise in the future to build bespoke websites. As for e-commerce stay well away from WordPress, there are other platforms better suited to this. But as a beginner I wouldn't advise taking on e-commerce, start with brochure style websites as you build up experience. Building bespoke sites from scratch will force you to learn how to code - which to become a professional in this industry you must be able to do.

 

I hope the above doesn't come across as too harsh, but there is in my opinion a pre-resequite level of competency before being able to sell yourself to clients as a web developer or designer - the same as any professional. If I hired an electrician I'd expect them to have a good understanding of what they're doing

There are many good resources to learn from and if you want we can direct you to some of those. Lastly there's nothing wrong in telling a client you are inexperienced in a particular area - say e-commerce. Honesty is the best policy as the last thing you will want to do is to promise a feature for a client then be unable to deliver.

 

I do understand - and no its not harsh advice at all.. its great advice. I never ever told the client I was experienced. She knew this was my first e-commerce website, and a new venture all together for me.

 

I would love to learn how to build from scratch, I see other designers doing it and wish I could be one, but have no idea where to start.

 

I dont see why I should take my website down though? I have removed all her images (well hours of work with photoshop correcting her ****e images) and taken her text off. Its my domain name - well my husbands actually. Surely she is a fool to get her new site built on the .com address of mine?

 

Probably another naive question, but can I not sell my website on to someone else - or use it to sell online myself?