January 5, 201610 yr Hey guys, not sure you've heard yet but next Tuesday Microsoft will drop support for all IE versions except the latest https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/End-of-IE-support How happy that makes you ? or better yet, how about sharing your most awful experience in making your website compatible with older IE versions?
January 6, 201610 yr I remember the days of IE4/5 and Netscape Navigator trying to get sites looking the same, if people think IE7/8/9 were painfull they weren't actually that bad
January 7, 201610 yr I wanted to start working on a CSS grid based on flexbox which only works with IE10+. So good to hear that.
January 21, 201610 yr I remember IE6, which was a major pain. IE7 was a bit better, at least it supported PNG transparency. IE8 / 9 did require some extra work sometimes. People have now accepted the site wouldn't look exactly the same in every browser and on every device, so that's one less thing to worry about.
January 21, 201610 yr I don't find IE9 too bad. We have a huge finance industry over here, and they all use IE8. It's a nightmare, local usage for IE8 is often higher than IE9 and 10 combined. I'd say supporting older mobile browsers is much more difficult. People still have iPhone 4's and don't understand why the site looks weird. IE6 was the bomb, Cufon and sIFR were my homies, along with PNG fix. Good times.
January 21, 201610 yr I wanted to start working on a CSS grid based on flexbox which only works with IE10+. And what about all those people still using older versions? Just because MS are dropping support doesn't mean people are going to suddenly stop using them. In any case, the grid system isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are a lot more efficient ways to style a site.
January 21, 201610 yr I wanted to start working on a CSS grid based on flexbox which only works with IE10+. So good to hear that. use a grid that falls-back gracefully. Flexbox has pretty poor performance when doing complex grid layouts so it isn't ideal for building an entire grid system around. I literally use it for when I want my grid to be equal heights, that is it. The rest of the time inline-blocks do just fine. Flexbox is a tool, not a replacement so combine it with the other layout tools. My grid works down to IE8 and if flexbox is not supported then the items are just not equal height anymore. https://github.com/rbrtsmith/rbrtsmith-grid Besides IE7 was dropped by most places years ago, it's IE8 that's been hanging on but these finance industries are going to be forced to update seen as Microsoft are dropping support.. it could be a major security issue for them..? Edited January 21, 201610 yr by rbrtsmith
January 22, 201610 yr Besides IE7 was dropped by most places years ago, it's IE8 that's been hanging on but these finance industries are going to be forced to update seen as Microsoft are dropping support.. it could be a major security issue for them..? Security never seems to be an issue for finance and banks, until something big happens. For example, I've seen a few cash machines booting Windows XP, which is obviously a terrible idea. Part of the problem is that they use a load of legacy software which actually breaks in modern browsers and systems. Rather than upgrading, it's more cost effective to keep using what they have.
January 22, 201610 yr Security never seems to be an issue for finance and banks, until something big happens. For example, I've seen a few cash machines booting Windows XP, which is obviously a terrible idea. Why is this a terrible idea? It's not connected to anything hackable so the OS it uses is irrelevant. Just about all legacy ATMs use XP - there is no benefit in upgrading to anything else.
January 22, 201610 yr Why is this a terrible idea? It's not connected to anything hackable so the OS it uses is irrelevant. You can find tonnes of articles relating to windows-based ATM hacks. It's a computer, has an IP, and is therefore venerable either locally or remotely. There are a few Youtube videos from DEFCON that go into detail about just how vulnerable they are. Windows XP has a disadvantage because it's no longer patched. If a hacker discovers a new flaw, that flaw will go unaddressed, leaving the attacker free to exploit it. That's the issue. How they can get around PCI compliance with this is unbelievable. If you were a payment gateway like Stripe running an old server OS, you would surely be breaking the law.
January 22, 201610 yr Reading into those hacks most of then were on isolated machines with a specific configuration. Most ATMs cannot be hacked. If they could then it would be in the news. And while they do have an IP address their connection is encryped so you can't break in their either. It's the same encryption your bank uses to process transactions. All ATMs are PCI compliant. Upgrading to a different OS would lose their compliance. You can't just install Win7 and reboot. There are layers after layer of integration to configure. This is why much of the banking system still runs XP, it's just far too complicated to upgrade. One of major banks (that my wife works for) has put to cost of upgrading the whole system from XP at over £1Bn. That's money they can no longer loan out to people.
January 22, 201610 yr Reading into those hacks most of then were on isolated machines with a specific configuration. Most ATMs cannot be hacked. If they could then it would be in the news. And while they do have an IP address their connection is encryped so you can't break in their either. It's the same encryption your bank uses to process transactions. All ATMs are PCI compliant. Upgrading to a different OS would lose their compliance. You can't just install Win7 and reboot. There are layers after layer of integration to configure. This is why much of the banking system still runs XP, it's just far too complicated to upgrade. One of major banks (that my wife works for) has put to cost of upgrading the whole system from XP at over £1Bn. That's money they can no longer loan out to people. There are plenty of news articles around with ATM hacks, not just ones that use skimmers http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/greendispenser-new-malware-infects-atms-enabling-hackers-extract-cash-command-1521201. Surely they have to upgrade at some point though. Can we still reliably use Win XP ATM's 10 - 15 years from now?
January 22, 201610 yr The article says: The malware has so far only been detected in Mexico It still hasn't arrived in the UK and even then wouldn't work because of the infrastructure. I agree they they do need to upgrade and a lot of testing is going on. But you can't just upgrade an ATM. Everything is hard coded into the machine. A new OS means a new ATM in many cases. And it also means the servers need upgrading and the WAN and everything else.
January 22, 201610 yr Wordpress upgrades are never a problem if you have a well configured site. If you are concerned something will break set up a sub-domain and duplicate your site. You can then test all updates before they go live. Most upgrade problems occur when you have naff WYSIWYG themes and hundreds of plugins most of which can be replaced with a few lines of code on your theme.
January 22, 201610 yr Sounds like a nightmare. I don't even like upgrading Wordpress. Ha ha. Know the feeling.
January 23, 201610 yr Wordpress upgrades are never a problem if you have a well configured site. If you are concerned something will break set up a sub-domain and duplicate your site. You can then test all updates before they go live. Most upgrade problems occur when you have naff WYSIWYG themes and hundreds of plugins most of which can be replaced with a few lines of code on your theme. Plugins are the worst aspect of WordPress. Apart from a few like ACF and Yoast, Super-Cache we avoid them completely (The 3 I mentioned should just be a standard anyway) Most WP 'devs' have no idea how to code at all. I used to push it back on here (WP) many months ago, but really if I was starting a new build I wouldn't go near it. There are better alternatives, however many clients seem to be requesting WP just because it's a bit of a buzzword. Edited January 23, 201610 yr by rbrtsmith
January 23, 201610 yr All in one SEO is better than yoast. Super-cache is a pain and can really slow down initial page views. And I've never found a use for ACF, get a decent theme and it's not needed. What are necessary are fail2ban and wordfence. And you don't really need a big SEO plugin either. All you need is a way to edit titles and descriotions. Like this: http://quick-plugins.com/no-fuss-seo/
March 10, 201610 yr Maybe you don't but million of people do. Which means anything you create needs to work on all browsers and devices.
March 10, 201610 yr Yep, if you're going to develop websites even though IE is terrible you've still got to include it. Maybe one day Microsoft will just get the hit and we won't have to deal with it anymore.
March 12, 201610 yr Anything JavaScript with old Internet Explorer was annoying, with some really obscure error messages. I think we'll be stuck with IE8 for a while yet, some organisations just aren't willing to upgrade until they absolutely have to. With forced updates in Windows 10 for Microsoft Edge, this shouldn't become such a big issue again, fingers crossed.
March 13, 201610 yr With forced updates in Windows 10 for Microsoft Edge, this shouldn't become such a big issue again, fingers crossed. What forced updates? MicroSoft may be pushing the Windows 10 but nobody is forced to upgrade. Win10 adoption is slowing down so many will be using IE8 for a long time to come.
March 13, 201610 yr What forced updates? MicroSoft may be pushing the Windows 10 but nobody is forced to upgrade. Win10 adoption is slowing down so many will be using IE8 for a long time to come. IE8 usage is very small now (0.8% globally according to caniuse), the last version of Windows that used IE8 was WindowsXP. We stopped supporting IE8 well over a year ago. Edited March 13, 201610 yr by rbrtsmith
March 14, 201610 yr A huge number of computers are still using XP. Maybe not Sainsbury customers but a lot of the banking industry, government and other public services still use XP and by default IE8.
March 14, 201610 yr A huge number of computers are still using XP. Maybe not Sainsbury customers but a lot of the banking industry, government and other public services still use XP and by default IE8. Yes, I was shocked to read that gov.uk negotiated a custom XP support deal with Microsoft (if you wonder how your tax money is spend) back in april 2014 https://governmenttechnology.blog.gov.uk/2015/05/22/update-on-the-customer-support-agreement-for-windows-xp/ But the deal was only for a year so I can only asume that your public institutions have upgraded from XP now. (except maybe from a few public libraries etc) Anyway, you shouldn't be supporting software that not even the vendors support anymore.
March 14, 201610 yr A huge number of computers are still using XP. Maybe not Sainsbury customers but a lot of the banking industry, government and other public services still use XP and by default IE8. Yes some of the banks and government institutions are using windows XP. But it's not a huge amount when the percentage is less than 1%. The figures do not lie. A huge amount would be like > 5% You have to look at the cost of supporting browsers like IE8 that do not support SVG, ES5, RWD without polyfills. It can require substantial work to support them and in many cases that money is better spent improving the user experience for the majority of users rather than a minute minority who are already used to a terrible experience. As a developer your job is to get your client a return on their investment, that is not going to happen if you blow a large % of their budget trying to support a tiny minority. Note that many big products like Gmail do not support IE8. Microsoft themselves no longer support IE8, so unless you are making intranet sites for a bank that refuses to update it's technology or a government website then there is little point. Edited March 14, 201610 yr by rbrtsmith
March 15, 201610 yr Most WP 'devs' have no idea how to code at all. Though we can agree that there are many cowboys in the WP biz, that is probably a bit of an exaggeration, considering that 15% of all traffic on wordpress.org seems to go to the function reference. Source: Alexa
March 15, 201610 yr A huge number of computers are still using XP. Maybe not Sainsbury customers but a lot of the banking industry, government and other public services still use XP and by default IE8. We had a client forward a screenshot on from one of their users at Lloyd's Bank, they were using Win XP and IE7. We don't build for IE7 at all, but it was interesting to see. The finance sector and government generally use IE8 over here (Jersey), and with finance being such a dominant industry, it's starting to become a problem. Most of this is caused by the online software used, it's usually only compatible with older systems. We've found that IE8 tends to have a much higher usage than IE9 and 10. At some point, you have to draw a line. If everything still works the client won't feel like they need to upgrade.
March 15, 201610 yr What forced updates? MicroSoft may be pushing the Windows 10 but nobody is forced to upgrade. Updates, not upgrades! So OS/browser updates are forced on Windows 10 users, unlike previous versions. I believe this does not apply to enterprise users of Windows 10 though.
March 15, 201610 yr Though we can agree that there are many cowboys in the WP biz, that is probably a bit of an exaggeration, considering that 15% of all traffic on wordpress.org seems to go to the function reference. Source: Alexa wpcodex.png I agree it was a bit of an overstatement, Should replace 'most' with 'many'
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