Literally every job I've applied for on indeed has required a whole range of skills that I don't have, I find that it's not even about the quality of your code. Every employer wants a whole different set of skills and they require you to be pretty good at it, what I've learnt from codeschool has got me some interviews but these are rare. I find that it's not actually the case of mastering the core skills in web dev, it's more about being good at random secondary skills (these fads that come and go). And plus even going for a web dev job at entry level, the competition is still pretty fierce, even junior roles there's people who've been on the job before, I find this is pretty true for jobs in general, they only want experienced people. It makes no sense to take on new people, unless of course it's an apprenticeship where they get the chance to exploit you anyway. I'm just gonna start up as a self employed electrician.

Edited July 28, 20188 yr by NullDrone

What are these fads?

Things I often see in junior roles are
- HTML
- CSS + Sass
- JavaScript - possibly a framework like React
- Some knowledge of automated testing
- Git
- Build tooling such as npm/gulp or webpack

None of these are fads and are really required to build any kind of modern website / web application.  (These are what you'd find for front-end listings) If you are looking for full stack then it's going to be much harder to land a junior role doing that.

Of course when you are starting out you are going to be "exploited" and I assume by that - being low paid and maybe not taking on the most exciting projects.  But that is what you have to go through.  Inexperienced developers don't really add any value - in fact many take value because more experienced developers then have to go and fix bugs caused by those with inexperience.  But given time experience is gained and they can become an asset - which is then when they get paid more.

I find it amazing in our industry how people are so quick to give up.  I mean you can learn enough in under 10-12 months to land a junior role and then within a few years be earning multiple times the national average.  What other careers can offer this?  With no formal qualifications.

Edited July 30, 20188 yr by rbrtsmith

Developer Junior would be;

HTML + CSS
PHP or ASPX (Some knowledge of a popular framework like WordPress)
SQL

Of course there will be the Unicorn adverts which would combine both front end and development which offer a stupidly low salary, always ignore these

On 7/28/2018 at 2:23 PM, NullDrone said:

Literally every job I've applied for on indeed has required a whole range of skills that I don't have

Why are you applying for the jobs if you don't have the skills? Most jobs I've seen advertised tell you exactly what they are looking for.

What you seem to be lacking is experience. You may have learnt things on codeschool but unless you have played with your skills and done some development it's why they give the job to someone else who spends their days writing code and experimenting.

Most recruiters will look at current market trends and the tech stack they use to base the job requirements off. Usually this is far more flexible than people think, a company won't expect a junior to have experience in everything, they will often want a good understanding of the fundamentals, the ability to problem solve and work well within a team. For example, Gitlab use Vue as a framework, but they hire off of knowledge of Javascript fundamentals and not framework experience.

It's also entirely up to you to make these interviews easier, do a bit of research on the technology they use and spend a few hours playing around with it, or watch a conference talk on the subject. That way you're not totally blind to it going in to an interview, and you're able to ask a couple questions about it.

I went for a short contract job as a technical writer. The spec asked for knowledge of their industry and a specific authoring platform. I had neither but a couple of hours research and I knew enough to get me the interview.

Signed the contract last week. I've even got them to buy me the application.

On 7/30/2018 at 9:28 AM, BrowserBugs said:

Developer Junior would be;

HTML + CSS
PHP or ASPX (Some knowledge of a popular framework like WordPress)
SQL

Of course there will be the Unicorn adverts which would combine both front end and development which offer a stupidly low salary, always ignore these

This depends on the role.  Any decent front-end role will not require any knowledge of PHP, ASPX (Dead technology) or SQL.
There's loads of languages used on the server and not all databases are SQL, NoSQL being hugely popular also.
I'd say a junior backend role is gonna want knowledge in the language they use (Node, PHP, Java, Ruby etc) and a database tech like SQL or NoSQL along with some knowledge of REST API design.

The point is - it's pretty straightforward to figure out what to learn to get a junior frontend role.  For backend you should learn the languages that are popular at places in your local area - and perhaps those used by the big firms.  I'd go with JavaScript and Node because that is transferrable to the frontend and Node is really popular these days.

Edited July 31, 20188 yr by rbrtsmith

2 minutes ago, rbrtsmith said:

This depends on the role.  Any decent front-end role will not require any knowledge of PHP, ASPX (Dead technology) or SQL.  These are all backend focused.

Yep, this was for developer back end not front end for comparison to help show the basics required like your list. Here's a job i just spotted for a Middleweight PHP Developer (£35k-£45k);

Strong understanding of PHP
HTML/CSS/JavaScript
MySQL
API Knowledge (interacting with or writing them yourself)
Strong communication skills

.. and under desired is stuff like Working with Laravel or Symphony and Knowledge of modern JavaScript frameworks (Vue,React,Angular), but the core is back end and connection with front end developers, any more than that and it's a bonus, there must be unicorns but i'm certainly not one

@BrowserBugs
And that £35-£45k isn't a bad wage for something you could learn in around a year.  The amount of money you can make with a few years of experience and dedication is astounding when you compare the efforts required to earn those in other technical positions.
Where else could people earn £100k plus in less than 5 years without any formal (expensive!) qualifications?

I mean there are other professions but they typically are very high stress - dealing with politics, difficult people and targets etc.  Us developers just have to solve problems on our laptop, get to wear whatever we like to work in a chilled environment.  What isn't there to love?

I think web development is a brilliant career choice and it's sooo worth the effort required to get into.

Edited July 31, 20188 yr by rbrtsmith

Not a bad wage at all, forget call centres and middle management, totally agree one career where your knowledge and abilities define your worth and progression rather than who you eat lunch with. Was mainly showing that html/css/js are core to both sides of a development team, hell html should be a requirement for SEO positions as well imo.

 

25 minutes ago, BrowserBugs said:

Yep, this was for developer back end not front end for comparison to help show the basics required like your list. Here's a job i just spotted for a Middleweight PHP Developer (£35k-£45k);

Strong understanding of PHP
HTML/CSS/JavaScript
MySQL
API Knowledge (interacting with or writing them yourself)
Strong communication skills

.. and under desired is stuff like Working with Laravel or Symphony and Knowledge of modern JavaScript frameworks (Vue,React,Angular), but the core is back end and connection with front end developers, any more than that and it's a bonus, there must be unicorns but i'm certainly not one

That's the thing, with Laravel etc they would want a strong understanding of object orientated programming and MVC more than frameworks specifics. Someone who understands that part will transition into being able to work with a framework like Laravel easily, so it's not all that important.

I've actually never heard of anyone failing an interview because they didn't know a framework, but I've heard of plenty failed because they didn't grasp the fundamentals of the language.

Majority of  jobs I have  noticed recently  spell out to you  what they are looking for.

Is the problem that you are too  short of experience? You might have learned much on code school however, if you have messed about with the  skills you said you have plus achieved in  some development maybe this is  why they gave  the job to someone  else who achieves many objectives whilst writing code and carrying out development work.

 

Edited July 31, 20188 yr by Vidladdie
Spelling

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:22 AM, rbrtsmith said:

What are these fads?

Things I often see in junior roles are
- HTML
- CSS + Sass
- JavaScript - possibly a framework like React
- Some knowledge of automated testing
- Git
- Build tooling such as npm/gulp or webpack

None of these are fads and are really required to build any kind of modern website / web application.  (These are what you'd find for front-end listings) If you are looking for full stack then it's going to be much harder to land a junior role doing that.

Of course when you are starting out you are going to be "exploited" and I assume by that - being low paid and maybe not taking on the most exciting projects.  But that is what you have to go through.  Inexperienced developers don't really add any value - in fact many take value because more experienced developers then have to go and fix bugs caused by those with inexperience.  But given time experience is gained and they can become an asset - which is then when they get paid more.

I find it amazing in our industry how people are so quick to give up.  I mean you can learn enough in under 10-12 months to land a junior role and then within a few years be earning multiple times the national average.  What other careers can offer this?  With no formal qualifications.

Need recommendations for things to create in order to improve my skills.

I've created my own personal website. So far every recommendation people have given me is small projects that won't prove + improve my ability to code. I haven't given up, I just don't know what to do next. NEED DIRECTION - you told me to learn codeschool then I did it, it's not laziness.

This is the big problem with learning from home (even more so for me) is you get lost not knowing what to do, whereas at college you'd be directed, this is whole reason why I went back to college because they keep you on track. Someone like me gets into all kinds of stupid **** without clear direction.

This forum should have stickied guide with advice on landing your first web dev job, what I've already created isn't really enough to land me the job. I'm thinking maybe actually start up my own website that generates income - which is what I wanted to do in the beginning anyway. But i'd have to pay out for a server again.

Edited July 31, 20188 yr by NullDrone

11 hours ago, rbrtsmith said:

@BrowserBugs
And that £35-£45k isn't a bad wage for something you could learn in around a year.  The amount of money you can make with a few years of experience and dedication is astounding when you compare the efforts required to earn those in other technical positions.
Where else could people earn £100k plus in less than 5 years without any formal (expensive!) qualifications?

I mean there are other professions but they typically are very high stress - dealing with politics, difficult people and targets etc.  Us developers just have to solve problems on our laptop, get to wear whatever we like to work in a chilled environment.  What isn't there to love?

I think web development is a brilliant career choice and it's sooo worth the effort required to get into.

How many years does it take to progress from junior to senior role?

And where are you getting these statistics? I'm seeing on indeed the average is actually £32K a year, usually junior roles are around £20K - £25K a year.

I had always thought that becoming electrical engineer was also one of the highest paying careers but on indeed pays an average of £30K a year.

It takes as long as it takes. If you show skill and aptitude it can happen quickly, for some it never happens.

Many companies require more than just coding skills. Senior staff take on a lot of project management and administrative roles so they could be looking for those who have leadership qualities.

As to wages, it depends on the business, location, role and many other factors.

4 hours ago, fisicx said:

It takes as long as it takes. If you show skill and aptitude it can happen quickly, for some it never happens.

Many companies require more than just coding skills. Senior staff take on a lot of project management and administrative roles so they could be looking for those who have leadership qualities.

As to wages, it depends on the business, location, role and many other factors.

Pretty much. @rbrtsmith put significant work in to get to the level he's at, it didn't just happen. 

12 hours ago, NullDrone said:

This forum should have stickied guide with advice on landing your first web dev job, what I've already created isn't really enough to land me the job. I'm thinking maybe actually start up my own website that generates income - which is what I wanted to do in the beginning anyway. But i'd have to pay out for a server again.

The problem is that it varies depending on the role you want, where you're based, and it has to kept up to date.

I'd recommend having a look at https://www.freecodecamp.org though if you want a curriculum to stick to, but it's not a straight-forward course, the algorithms section alone is 300 hours.

13 hours ago, Jack said:

Pretty much. @rbrtsmith put significant work in to get to the level he's at, it didn't just happen. 

The problem is that it varies depending on the role you want, where you're based, and it has to kept up to date.

I'd recommend having a look at https://www.freecodecamp.org though if you want a curriculum to stick to, but it's not a straight-forward course, the algorithms section alone is 300 hours.

I think actually the hard part of being a web dev is coming up with the ideas of what to create, learning to code and coding IMO is the easy part. This is where i'm stuck.

Edited August 1, 20188 yr by NullDrone

9 minutes ago, NullDrone said:

I think actually the hard part of being a web dev is coming up with the ideas of what to create, learning to code and coding IMO is the easy part. This is where i'm stuck.

I'm not sure I agree, it can start off straight-forward, but a lot of learning to code is done through experience, and you only really get there by getting out of your comfort zone often. If you see a top developer work, it's amazing how good they can be at it. I watch game dev Jon Blow stream on Twitch sometimes, it's astounding how much programming knowledge he has, there's basically nothing I've seen that's out of his ability.

The easy part should be the ideas, every developer has an itch they want to scratch. That's arguably the perk of the job, if you want it, it's not outside of your capability to build it, and that's simply not possible in most industries.

There must be something that would benefit you in your day to day work that you could build, like something that would help in your engineering studies, or even to help you keep you on track. I find the best things to work on are the ones that solve a problem that you personally have.

5 hours ago, Jack said:

I'm not sure I agree, it can start off straight-forward, but a lot of learning to code is done through experience, and you only really get there by getting out of your comfort zone often. If you see a top developer work, it's amazing how good they can be at it. I watch game dev Jon Blow stream on Twitch sometimes, it's astounding how much programming knowledge he has, there's basically nothing I've seen that's out of his ability.

I've been freelance for 16 years and to be honest I'm still learning, I think if you spoke with Jon Blow he'd say the same, no one is ever 'complete', it's why I love this industry, always something new to experiment with or ways to refine what you already know.

6 hours ago, NullDrone said:

I think actually the hard part of being a web dev is coming up with the ideas of what to create, learning to code and coding IMO is the easy part. This is where i'm stuck.

As @Jack says surely there must be something you can build, especially a full stack project as it'll show every area of web development so you can see what bits you prefer and think about specialising your learning in those areas.

I built a site a few years back for a mobile game I play which features all playable characters in the game and what bonuses they get when teamed together, even has a team builder with comparison for testing out builds. Still a pet  project but it taught me loads at the time, especially variable variables which feature quite a lot.

So basically I took a hobby which had a problem, I used to have to work out teams on paper so built something to fix that, at the same time the site now gets over 30k visitors a month, guess I wasn't the only one using paper

6 hours ago, NullDrone said:

I think actually the hard part of being a web dev is coming up with the ideas of what to create, learning to code and coding IMO is the easy part. This is where i'm stuck.

I’ve got a number of projects I don’t have time to develop that I offered to you some months back but I heard nothing from you.

it doesn’t matter too much what you do as long as you do something. Why not just code components. Build a better checkout, a self validating contact form, a tiled responsive gallery, a chat box, intelligent menu system, your own grid.

Just do something instead of prevaricating.

To get my first job I created my own website and a few small demos that I thought would help demonstrate my ability as a developer.  I applied at many places and eventually landed an interview at a local agency.
I took in a folder showing annotated code samples of the demos I had created along with screenshots and explained my decision making process - I wanted to prove that I could build things like responsive navigations without relying on plugins and that I had a good understanding of the fundamentals.

Lots of projects and having great ideas for them doesn't matter, it's how they are executed.  We aren't paid to come up with project ideas, we're paid to execute ideas from clients and turn them into workable, user-friendly software that is free of bugs.  You want to demonstrate your ability to do that, and a few demos and maybe a single project is really all that is needed.

I also offered to work for free to gain some experience and because I simply love writing code - They we're hesitant to hire me initially but when I said that they could see my enthusiasm and offered me a project to prove my worth (They paid me for it BTW).  They required knowledge of Git which I hadn't even heard of so that weekend before I started I spent all of it learning Git basics.  I was hired full time in the middle of the next week because they could see my drive to learn and improve.

So it's not as simple as doing the online courses because lots of your competition are also doing that.  You have to go above and beyond those who are also applying with more experience - show them that within a few months you will be a greater asset that the guy who's got some experience but already thinks he knows it all.

As for moving to senior positions it depends on many factors, I was lucky in that the front-end role didn't really exist at my first job - I basically created it on the back of the other devs there preferring not to write CSS/Sass so we came to an arrangement.  A year later they hired two developers and had regular interns so I became their lead front-end dev based on that and I'd also significantly improved.  In other more established firms this may take longer, you may need to job hop.

My next job at Sainsbury's I applied for the lead position but I was offered the role of "developer" so not even senior - although the salary package was good so I took it.  Soon after starting I realised I had dodged a bullet by not being offered the senior/lead role - because now because the project complexity and ability of my co-workers was in a different league.  I would have been well out of my depth.  However that made for an amazing learning experience.

18 months later I didn't see much scope for promotions so I had to leave to land the title of "senior developer" - job hopping is often a quick way to advance your career but obviously comes with risk.  That role didn't work out as planned and I decided to move into contracting - which is where I'm at now on a contract at BSkyB working with some exceptionally talented people.  Contracting pays close to double what you'd get as a perm employee, however it comes with it's own risks and drawbacks and that is something beyond the scope of this thread.

I took inspiration from Harry Robert's career.  He managed to accelerate his career at an alarming rate and I just had the plan that if I can do half as good as he does then I'd be in a really good place - and I believe this is something anybody on here could do if that's a goal they want to go for.

I hope this gives you some ideas on how you can move forward.  Don't be put off by rejections - I've had many that I've not touched on here, just move onto the next.

1 hour ago, fisicx said:

Just do something instead of prevaricating.

Also this^^^

5 hours ago, fisicx said:

I’ve got a number of projects I don’t have time to develop that I offered to you some months back but I heard nothing from you.

it doesn’t matter too much what you do as long as you do something. Why not just code components. Build a better checkout, a self validating contact form, a tiled responsive gallery, a chat box, intelligent menu system, your own grid.

Just do something instead of prevaricating.

Can you send me these in PM please?

Edited August 2, 20188 yr by NullDrone

I also think employers don't really look at my code tbh.

I send link to my github profile but not really hearing a response.

Just makes me think they've got a handful of developers who have previous work experience, it seems this way in every industry actually.

46 minutes ago, NullDrone said:

Just makes me think they've got a handful of developers who have previous work experience, it seems this way in every industry actually.

So go get experience. Stop posting and start coding. For example, look at the website of your prospective employer and offer a faster, lighter and better optimised feature.

1 hour ago, fisicx said:

So go get experience. Stop posting and start coding. For example, look at the website of your prospective employer and offer a faster, lighter and better optimised feature.

They want someone with experience of working in a company

Edited August 2, 20188 yr by NullDrone

"If you really want to do something, you’ll find a way. If you don’t, you’ll find an excuse."

That sums it all. 

Somewhere there there is the right company waiting for you. You just need to find them. Or become a freelancer. Or find another way.

Just don't give up.

9 minutes ago, NullDrone said:

They want someone with experience of working in a company

No they don't, very few juniors are going to have that, you're just looking for excuses. Put the right work in and you'll get a job for sure.

1 hour ago, NullDrone said:

They want someone with experience of working in a company

Do they really? Or do they want someone with experience?

How much coding have you done today? Have you been playing with some jQuery to see if you can recreate an animation you saw. Or done some CSS to build a slide in menu. Or anything else.

I've just done a quick job for a client that grabbed the categories in a database, displayed them as a dropdown then listed the posts in the selected category. That's the sort of things you could be playing with.

 

Quote

 

Why the lazy resume approach is a critical failure

Usually the process of applying for a job goes like this: people read job boards until they find something that looks interesting, and then they apply for it.

The problem with this approach is that your resume ends up in a pile of all the other resumes. Then, the company pulls up the most promising ones (and it’s definitely not yours if you’re junior), and calls people up.

So, you find yourself in the system that prioritizes you very low, unless the company is actually looking for somebody like you.

It’s not surprising that with this approach, out of, let’s say, 50 people, none of them are calling you back.

 

 

Do you agree with this?

https://owlypixel.com/how-to-get-a-job-as-a-junior-developer/

Edited August 11, 20187 yr by NullDrone

You have missed the whole point of the article. Which is to have something to show people, to demonstrate willingness and to get involved.

I would say the low entry point to web development (mentioned above) is also one of the drawbacks to finding employment. As there is no formally recognised qualification, employers have a less effective way to judge applicants. This means that it’s a case of comparing applicants experience and/or raw knowledge - and as it’s very difficult to assess the quality of coding it comes down to knowledge of processes. As you’ve pointed out, the processes used in web development are constantly shifting - there isn’t an industry standard as such. There is also a competitive arms race amongst developers, who enjoy listing the most arcane or faddish development methods in their tool kit - and then expecting a new employee to fit in with this convoluted approach.

 

As in any walk of life finding a job is often being in the right place at the right time and having a face that fits. The IT sector isn’t renowned for social skills, but it will still go a long way. A business owner once told me that he wouldn’t employ a dedicated developer as he didn’t want a nerd in the office. (His words not mine!) Lastly having enthusiasm for the work is pretty vital. If you’re just in it for the money (and with anything internet based there’s always a gold rush mentality), then forget it. Go and be an electrician. 

32 minutes ago, pippin62 said:

I would say the low entry point to web development (mentioned above) is also one of the drawbacks to finding employment. As there is no formally recognised qualification, employers have a less effective way to judge applicants. This means that it’s a case of comparing applicants experience and/or raw knowledge - and as it’s very difficult to assess the quality of coding it comes down to knowledge of processes. As you’ve pointed out, the processes used in web development are constantly shifting - there isn’t an industry standard as such. There is also a competitive arms race amongst developers, who enjoy listing the most arcane or faddish development methods in their tool kit - and then expecting a new employee to fit in with this convoluted approach.

 

As in any walk of life finding a job is often being in the right place at the right time and having a face that fits. The IT sector isn’t renowned for social skills, but it will still go a long way. A business owner once told me that he wouldn’t employ a dedicated developer as he didn’t want a nerd in the office. (His words not mine!) Lastly having enthusiasm for the work is pretty vital. If you’re just in it for the money (and with anything internet based there’s always a gold rush mentality), then forget it. Go and be an electrician. 

I agree with the above but not so much with this "There is also a competitive arms race amongst developers, who enjoy listing the most arcane or faddish development methods in their tool kit - and then expecting a new employee to fit in with this convoluted approach."

So recent tools React and GraphQL, automated testing, bundling techniques like Webpack etc definitely make you more marketable but these tools are not at all fads.  They solve real problems and are a huge improvement in the way web development is now done.  Once issue I do have with developers is that they often over-complicate what should be really simple solutions to try and appear clever and that doesn't help anybody - or they use a tool in production merely because it's fun or they want to learn it.  As devs we have a duty to use the right tools for our employer/client and not over-engineer.

These modern tools though I say again are not fads.

Edited August 15, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

On 8/11/2018 at 7:00 PM, NullDrone said:

Usually the process of applying for a job goes like this: people read job boards until they find something that looks interesting, and then they apply for it.

The problem with this approach is that your resume ends up in a pile of all the other resumes. Then, the company pulls up the most promising ones (and it’s definitely not yours if you’re junior), and calls people up.

 

Do you agree with this?

https://owlypixel.com/how-to-get-a-job-as-a-junior-developer/

Try thinking out of the box, rather than doing what all the other applicants do, perhaps deliver your CV in person, or pay for a designer to make it stand out.  There are things you can do to draw some attention to your application.

Get involved in local dev meetups - word of mouth is very powerful and a personal recommendation will greatly enhance your chances.

On 8/15/2018 at 11:21 AM, rbrtsmith said:

Try thinking out of the box, rather than doing what all the other applicants do, perhaps deliver your CV in person, or pay for a designer to make it stand out.  There are things you can do to draw some attention to your application.

Get involved in local dev meetups - word of mouth is very powerful and a personal recommendation will greatly enhance your chances.

Yh that's what i'm doing now.