Hey there.

 

I'm not quite sure if this is the appropriate place for discussing/asking it but it got me wondering - do you guys have any suggestions where I could outsource web design services relatively cheaply? Of course the quality doesn't have to be top class here, but the visuals should be good and code readable enough for a second programmer to attempt clean it up and perform some SEO.

 

The reason why I'm asking this is because I recently got an idea how to get local clients, but unfortunately

1) I'm not THAT good of a designer

2) I don't have the time to take multiple requests at a time

so I'd much rather focus off-site SEO and outsource most of my design works.

Any suggestions where to head to? Keyword here is bolded.

 

 

Regards

Chosen

Not sure why this thread was unapproved, it's a valid question and i think the OP needs a little guidance here.

 

The cost of the work done is directly comparable to the quality of work done.

In this case relatively cheaply = relatively bad quality. As you're outsourcing this work, it all comes back down to you and your business, not the place you outsourced it to and these places know this fact full well.

 

If your strength lies in SEO then sell yourself as that and forget the whole idea of being an all in one provider. You're SEO may be the best there is but by coupling it with cheaply created sites you're doing nothing but damaging your own business. If you do want to provide a design and development service as well then you'll need to pay the cost. Go through the portfolios of designers/developers and look for the quality you wouldn't mind coming out of your business. Then approach these developers/designers and enter in to discussions with them, work out a good price and a good deal and work with them. I my self have worked along side many SEO specialists, agencies, developers, designers etc and i offer them a good deal on the price because it is recurring work.

 

One final note... say no to India or say bye bye to your business.

[moved to business and legal']

Agree with what Mike's said above, plus this: having someone do it badly and someone better to come along afterward and correct the mistakes is likely to cost more than just having someone do it well in the first place, plus you're introducing unknowns into the estimate: there's no way of telling in advance how many mistakes the second bod is going to have to correct or how long it will take.

 

Outsource to someone you trust, because as Mike says, it's your business' reputation that will live or die on the quality of the work delivered.

Thank you for approving my thread (I honestly can not imagine why it didn't get approved in the first place as I don't think my thread was /that/ spammy)

 

Mike I actually started considering India design agencies at one point because quite frankly they seem to be cheap as **** yet have plenty of customers to back their experience. While I do see and do realise the risks of (cheap) oursourcing in these ascepts - I hope you understand that this comes with 2 sides of the job, I honestly don't think I should reject some potential client only because I can't deal with more at that momment. I do believe that most of you, web designers, at one point have gotten more than a single request at a time and it's kind of hard for me to imagine that you would turn them down.

 

 

To go further I, myself, have thought about using freelance tourney sites (elance, 99blaze, logoauctions, fiverr) unless someone has anything else to offer, idea-wise? I have heard a lot of negative feedback about the previously mentioned sites but unfortunately I don't think I could afford any decent outsourcing web-design services right now.

 

I could provide SEO only but I just happen to live at "an area" which isn't virtualized yet. There's not much in terms of SEO for me to provide BUt they do have a whole possiblity for a whole branding+web design+SEO afterwards packet potential. But as said previously, I don't think I qualify for the whole thing.

 

Thank you for your time and replies

 

Regards

Chosen

I do believe that most of you, web designers, at one point have gotten more than a single request at a time and it's kind of hard for me to imagine that you would turn them down.

 

I wouldnt turn them down - I'd refer them to someone else I knew could do the work. I brand myself as an individual freelancer, so I only take on work that I can do personally. I don't find the idea of white-labelling someone else's work something that I'm ethically comfortable with. If someone else is doing the work, let them take the credit.

Mike I actually started considering India design agencies at one point because quite frankly they seem to be cheap as **** yet have plenty of customers to back their experience.

 

Fell free to hire where you want. The more people that hire Indian outsourcers the more clients come crying to me to fix their sites after they've inevitably had them buggered hard.

I get a huge amount of work from clients who outsourced only to find the quality of the work was horrific or the sites just didn't work.

 

While I do see and do realise the risks of (cheap) oursourcing in these ascepts - I hope you understand that this comes with 2 sides of the job, I honestly don't think I should reject some potential client only because I can't deal with more at that momment. I do believe that most of you, web designers, at one point have gotten more than a single request at a time and it's kind of hard for me to imagine that you would turn them down.

 

Damn right you do.

Greed will burn you out. You can only do so much work at a time before your work becomes so thinly spread that you're turning out masses and masses of manure. Ever heard of quality over quantity.

 

 

I don't think I could afford any decent outsourcing web-design services right now.

 

Then it's not something you should even be considering.

You seem to be confusing 'Outsourcing' and 'cheap' to be the same thing.

I take on a lot of outsource work, which i do with as much care and professionalism as if it was my own site. I'm not cheap though.

 

I could provide SEO only but I just happen to live at "an area" which isn't virtualized yet. There's not much in terms of SEO for me to provide BUt they do have a whole possiblity for a whole branding+web design+SEO afterwards packet potential. But as said previously, I don't think I qualify for the whole thing.

 

Then , yes, you do need to fill those gaps, but you are thinking the wrong way about it, especially if you'd like the business to be a success.

In our early days we worked with European and Indian 'freelancers' and the single biggest issue is the language barrier and quality/competency expectations.

 

It may seem like a generalisation but we found paying the premium for UK based workers was worth every penny, rectifying problems is easier and quicker, and from our experience the quality of work is far superior.

 

I still can't understand why 'they' can't learn how to do the job properly? Again it makes me think it's a language barrier, self tuition through predominantly English channels and over marketing their ability.

It may seem like a generalisation but we found paying the premium for UK based workers

 

Hate to be pedantic (ah, who am i kidding) but you're not paying 'a premium'. Half the problem is people thinking like this. You're paying the price for the work involved. When you outsource to another country like India, you're paying far below what you should be, hence getting crap in return.

 

Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

You're not being padantic you're being narrow-minded. We live in a global economy, with a global marketplace.

The Indians have not done themselves any favours. They constantly bombard you with crap and spam and when you check out their websites they are usually very poor code rip-offs and so badly designed it is untrue.

 

It is a reputation well earned. I have only come across one Indian developer that breaks the mold and the coding he helped me with was more advanced than anything I have yet to see from anyone on this forum. As for the rest I would not give them a penny.

How dare you call me narrow minded for pointing out a flaw in your grand plan. You don't know me and you don't know how I run my business.

Your whole 'paying a premium for UK' is the exact mindset that is forcing people to drop quality so they can provide acres of crap instead, most of them unable to feed their families properly.

 

Paying UK workers to do a decent job is not 'paying a premium' it's paying a fair price.

 

Also, I'll thank you not to try and educate me on global marketplaces yadeya... I'm well aware, having been in this profession for over ten years.

Edited June 6, 201214 yr by MikeChipshop

i personally feel hiring indian designers or uk designers is not the case here

when some one hire anybody

u shld chk their background .... test them in every possible way and double chk their portfolio

thts all really counts...

 

it all matters of survival of the fittest

Edited June 6, 201214 yr by sash_oo7

I agree, we live in a global economy with a global marketplace. The sad fact is, we're only ever likely to come into contact with the lowest common denominator of foreign developers, because they're the ones who've been crowded out of their own marketplaces and have to rely on selling their work at a low hourly rate to people in stronger economies to make a living.

 

The good devs in India and the Phillipines are also aware that they're living in a global economy and are likely charging their clients the same as you or I would, and managing their projects in perfect English to boot (which is one up on me, I don't have a second language). Bad devs from India can work at UK burger-flipping rates on elance and still make it work because of the cost of living difference, but wherever they're from, in a global economy cheap and crappy is cheap and crappy.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

I honestly thought there was a bug on my screen... LOL...

Exactlly, the notion that you're paying a premium is defunct. As has been said above, every country has their cream and every country has their crap.

You want good work you pay good price, no matter what country you hire from.

 

The fact that I've been awake for an hour and have already had to ban two Indian outsourcers for spamming this forum is testimate to the tactics they use.

 

Also let me be cLear, it's not just 'Indian' but many places in the world, including the UK that have this mass production, low quality problem.

How dare you call me narrow minded for pointing out a flaw in your grand plan. You don't know me and you don't know how I run my business.

Your whole 'paying a premium for UK' is the exact mindset that is forcing people to drop quality so they can provide acres of crap instead, most of them unable to feed their families properly.

 

Paying UK workers to do a decent job is not 'paying a premium' it's paying a fair price.

 

Also, I'll thank you not to try and educate me on global marketplaces yadeya... I'm well aware, having been in this profession for over ten years.

 

You were condescending towards me when what I said was accurate, I pick up on the fact that perhaps you're wrong and seeing what you want to see, being (understandably) protective, then you get aggressive and heated in your defence. Not how I expect a forum moderator to behave.

 

I don't want an argument but I disagree and believe you're wrong. To say we aren't paying a premium is not being pedantic, it's ignoring the wider issue.

 

You say "you're paying far below what you should be", but that's not for you decide and actually supports my statement.

 

We live in a digital age that allows us to work with people across the globe with ease. If I can send an email across the world and 'hire' someone, then so can my gran, and that's the point. There is no longer us and them, the local market place does exist but it's in direct competition with the national and international labor. Therefore we all exist in the same wider market and those of us that charge more than the average as dictated by the market are charging a premium for our time - fact!

 

You say "the notion you're paying a premium is defunct", but it couldn't be more relevant than it is today with the global links we have.

 

This is not a matter of quality or level of service, this is purely about price. The market does not care of anything other than supply and demand, once the price has been found and the transaction made, the market moves on.

 

Now who's being pedantic?

Edited June 7, 201214 yr by MMMedia

Can I just say, as I've said earlier, I don't agree with hiring outside of the UK. We tried it to cuts costs and it simply doesn't work because quality does indeed suffer, but that is an entirely separate metric to the above.

 

So just to be doubly sure - I am NOT in favour of using external labor, we work with UK based freelancers.

Sigh... I had no idea that as a moderator I wasn't allowed express an opinion or be passionate about a subject.

My deepest apologies, I'll switch back in to autonomous cyborg mode, moderating is no job for a human being.

 

You're still not getting it though are you?

You're not paying a premium for using UK freelancers, you're just paying a hell of a lot less than you should be when you employ from outsourced mass production warehouses. This is my point.

I'm not getting it? Sigh, indeed.

 

This isn't about passion, this isn't about your feelings on the matter, this isn't about your opinion (or mine) - this is about supply and demand.

 

Instead of getting defensive and pointing the finger, why not be more objective yourself? Step away from the subject matter because you're too close and emotional involved.

 

You're not paying a premium for using UK freelancers, you're just paying a hell of a lot less than you should be when you employ from outsourced mass production warehouses. This is my point.

 

Your point?

 

Your point highlights the mass migration of labor and production to the far east. Explain China, explain why we have no export market in the UK. If it can happen in machining, manufacturing, textiles, luxury goods, technology... it can certainly happen in web design!

 

Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your point.

I agree, we live in a global economy with a global marketplace. The sad fact is, we're only ever likely to come into contact with the lowest common denominator of foreign developers, because they're the ones who've been crowded out of their own marketplaces and have to rely on selling their work at a low hourly rate to people in stronger economies to make a living.

 

The good devs in India and the Phillipines are also aware that they're living in a global economy and are likely charging their clients the same as you or I would, and managing their projects in perfect English to boot (which is one up on me, I don't have a second language). Bad devs from India can work at UK burger-flipping rates on elance and still make it work because of the cost of living difference, but wherever they're from, in a global economy cheap and crappy is cheap and crappy.

 

 

This is exactly what I was going to reply with. I know Indian developers who are really good at what they do, they are cheaper than us, but only just and tend to have great English. They are the ones who take their career seriously.

 

If anyone, from anywhere in the world, gives you a ridiculously low price, its likely you will be disappointed. If you source anywhere that does not speak your language as a first language, be it India or Germany, language barriers can be an issue, so its important to make sure there isn't one and that they understand you.

 

 

On a personal level, I only ever outsource if its required, like a specialism/niche in my field or if the client needs something that is best served by a specialist in another field.

 

Like I had a client a couple of years back who wanted Anime style graphics; over to Japan we went; Western anime artists normally look generic.

Edited July 1, 201214 yr by FizixRichard

TL;DR version:

 

If you think hiring a professional is expensive, wait til you hire an amateur.

Edited July 2, 201214 yr by Renaissance-Design

Suffices to say that this thread and hearing of users previous experiences with outsourcing to India and other countries has potential saved me a lot of headache. I was strongly considering using a freelance company within India for a Job I recently posted on Elance.

 

I am new to outsource web development work and am finding it rather difficult to find the right person for the job - I find many freelances all list similar skills (Technology languages: HTML, CSS, Wordpress etc). Obviously the skills of web developers and their knowledge of each language is completely different so I am kind of basing my search on previous experience and portfolio.

 

Its difficult though as I am sure there are a few younger developer with maybe lesser experience but have a passion for producing great work and could also meet my project requirements.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience's though guys.

I can provide fairly cheap websites, but that does not mean they are bad. I simply dont have the overheads that many agencies have, thus my work is considerably cheaper than an agency. Does that mean its automatically assumed to be crap? Simply because I dont have rent/staff wages/taxes etc to pay?

 

Too many people get hung up on the fact web design is a passion - yeah it is for me, but 9/10 times people dont really care that you are lovingly slaving away on a job, they just want something that represents good value, does a job and presents them in a good light.

 

I am sure there are many good uk site providers who do a good job at a fraction of the cost others would charge. Its all about balance imo.

 

 

Also, sometimes clients dont want the best website ever with all bells and whistles, they just want something that works well for them within their budgets.

Edited July 3, 201214 yr by jamesosix

The thing is, agency rates per hour are far higher but more gets done per hour.

I work for a bunch of agencies as the front end guy and while I'm doing that the account manager will be in discussions with client, ther sever admin will be setting up the domain, server access, emails etc, the designer will be working through possible changes, the SEO guy will be researching possible keywords and a content strategy, the copywriter will be finalising copy.

 

Point is , the cost per hour matches the work per hour. If I was to do this on my own, which I regularly do, the amount of hours adds up fast. So in essence, the final cost can be the same.

To some clients and sectors, in a word, yes.

 

"Reassuringly expensive"!

The thing is, agency rates per hour are far higher but more gets done per hour.

I work for a bunch of agencies as the front end guy and while I'm doing that the account manager will be in discussions with client, ther sever admin will be setting up the domain, server access, emails etc, the designer will be working through possible changes, the SEO guy will be researching possible keywords and a content strategy, the copywriter will be finalising copy.

 

Point is , the cost per hour matches the work per hour. If I was to do this on my own, which I regularly do, the amount of hours adds up fast. So in essence, the final cost can be the same.

 

That's a good point and one freelancers often stuff themselves on i.e. they neglect to charge for the 'admin side' of the job!

Edited July 3, 201214 yr by MMMedia

Actually neglect isn't the right word, are 'worried' or concerned about charging for, is perhaps more apt?

Balls to worry. 10% is a good rule of thumb for project management. Adjust it upward if the client is particularly needy or wordy.

Balls to worry.

 

Aye, but that's experience talking!

To some clients and sectors, in a word, yes.

well their loss.

 

I get that many in this industry believe the "reasuringly expensive" angle, but i would say what is crap is very subjective.

 

You (not you personally) could have a £10000 site designed and built, but that does not mean its actually any good. My point is there is a flip side to that.

 

You could have a £250 website, that is actually brilliant.

Edited July 3, 201214 yr by jamesosix

And the person delivering a 'brilliant' website for £250 is KILLING the industry for the rest of us!

And the person delivering a 'brilliant' website for £250 is KILLING the industry for the rest of us!

Lol.

 

Nope.

 

Your failing to see good/bad is subjective.

 

 

 

anyway, this thread has no gone waaaaaaaaaaay OT.

Edited July 3, 201214 yr by jamesosix

And the person delivering a 'brilliant' website for £250 is KILLING the industry for the rest of us!

 

Depends what your hourly is. Assuming it's £25, that's ten hours to research, design and develop a site. Perfectly possible if it's a one-pager and the research stage has led you to the conclusion that this is the right option for the client (eg, a tradesman whose preferred method of contact is by phone and who doesn't have time to update a CMS site).

Personally I wasn't talking about a single page website and wasn't aware others were too, but yes £250 for a 'brochure' site is acceptable (probably about the norm).

Lol.

 

Nope.

 

Your failing to see good/bad is subjective.

 

 

 

anyway, this thread has no gone waaaaaaaaaaay OT.

 

We work on logo design, branding and marketing daily. Trust me, I know all too much about subjectivity - one person's iced caked is another's polished turd!

on fiverr i can get over 50 Indian made websites for under £250!

 

j/k, back to the point. If you want cheap designs try and find a local freelancer. It's always best to work with people you can meet up with.

on fiverr ...

 

"I will do something really badly for $5 and you wont complain because you'll expect it to be crap at that price"

Edited August 7, 201214 yr by bikeman