So today I was walking into the park on the way to the local ASDA to buy some trousers for a meeting tomorrow. I just got to the entrance to the park and two guys came up to me. The first had a cut lip, scratches all over his face and a bloody nose and the second guy just looked a little shocked more than anything. Anyway they waved at me (I had headphones in) and said that they'd just been beaten up by a roaming gang of guys for no reason and that I should walk the other way. I looked over their shoulders and could see said group, there must have been 20 of them all 15-18ish. Needless to say I did walk the other way.

 

Anyway when I left them and went my own way I started thinking to myself, at what point should I have to walk across the local park, at 5PM in broad daylight scared that I'll get jumped? I slowly got angrier and got to thinking that we've lost control, if I were to call the police they'd just scatter before they got there and if I intervened myself I could (would) very well get beaten up. It's only a matter of time until we start seeing vigilante groups of real "baduns" as it were going beating the roaming youth up. As far as I'm concerned roll on that day.

 

If any of you remember I posted a similar thread after I got into a fight with 2 young men on the way home from town, so that's twice in less than a month I've personally been a part of, or witnessed extreme aggression for no given reason. I know in that thread there were discussions that there have always been such problems but it's definitely worsening. Even in the 2 years I've not been at home I've noticed a huge change in my local area compared to when I left and when I came back a month or so ago.

 

You'll notice I've avoided using the term "Chav" in this post, I was listening to BBC Radio 2 (Yeah I'm sad I know, but I like Terry Wogan in the morning ) and there was a discussion about Chavs. Apparently they're annoyed that they get labeled as such and claim that they're decent honest working class folk. I'll admit a lot of lower-working class folk do dress like Chavs because usually sports clothing is cheap (£3 T-shirts and £5 tracksuit bottoms) and convenient. However I don't think that true Chavs deserve to be called working class at all, as most of them don't work and have no work ethic at all.

 

So who wants to join me in the WDF Vigilante Alliance?

 

But yeah it'd be interesting to hear your opinions on whether the whole vigilante thing will even happen.

I remember your last post. I will join you. I would also like to go back to that thread and remind people of the story about the boy I came across who just had acid thrown in his face... an update: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/7508181.stm

To be honest it's one of the reasons that I hate this country and wholeheartedly plan on moving abroad and retaining my UK client base.

 

I'm British, and I've lived abroad my whole life - been to around 200 cities in over 25 countries so I consider myself pretty qualified when it comes to comparing this to elsewhere.

 

I came back to the UK in 2004 and I can honestly say that I wish I hadn't. My living expenses each month are £1200 - and trust me I don't live a luxurious lifestyle at all! And all that pays for is rent and bills - not even food, petrol, or anything else!

 

$2400 in america or 1800 euros in france, goes a HELL of a lot further - and mainly because not everything is taxed to hell like it is here.

 

Mix that in with stupendous stories like yours that are becoming SO common, and I can't think of a single reason to stay here.

Welll we're about in a depression here so were not much better, damn gas

Move to spain, I did and its really nice here, no "Chavs" no gangs, one thing there is quite alot of is police pressence. But i remeber in england i didn't really like the police around me ever where, but here its quite nice, they are not all dressed up in body armor all they do is stand and watch, I guess there's not much crime here becuase all the cops (theres alot of them) carry a 9mm.

 

Also, money goeess wayyy further here exept fule is abit more expencive.

 

anyway onto the actuall subject of the thread....

I disagree that the "Chavs" get annoyed with the lable, I knew a few "Chavs" and they had msn emails like Chav_Queen etc...

It is sad indeed what today's society has become. Did this happen whilst in Stoke or at home in Derby? as my girlfriend who has lived in Stoke tells me that the place is overrun by chavs. Either way, something should be done as they are driving our country down and taking all our money with their benefits whilst offering nothing in return.

 

Luckily for me, I have been told I have the image of a 'Gangster' or 'Wannabe' as my friends prefer, which is probably due to the 'Chav' friends I had back in my first years of school. I have since moved on from that however. (My girlfriend also tells me I walk around with a 'pissed off' expression on my face) Therefore when Chavs see me walking down the street, they tend to just look over and carry on walking. I guess it's a good thing, since none would ever guess I was really a computer geek.

Yeah I'm covered head to toe in tattoos so I don't get much hassle either.. lol

They know nothing is really going to happen to them. If they do get caught and convicted they will get sent to prison for a couple of months. They probably get a better lifestyle in prison then they do at home.

 

A lot of these "chavs" are complete idiots when in gangs but are actually nice people if you are with them 1 on 1.

 

There is a direct correlation to size of group to stupidity.

I ride my harley through the town centre. My helmet has a big spike on it too.

It is sad indeed what today's society has become. Did this happen whilst in Stoke or at home in Derby? as my girlfriend who has lived in Stoke tells me that the place is overrun by chavs. Either way, something should be done as they are driving our country down and taking all our money with their benefits whilst offering nothing in return.

 

Luckily for me, I have been told I have the image of a 'Gangster' or 'Wannabe' as my friends prefer, which is probably due to the 'Chav' friends I had back in my first years of school. I have since moved on from that however. (My girlfriend also tells me I walk around with a 'pissed off' expression on my face) Therefore when Chavs see me walking down the street, they tend to just look over and carry on walking. I guess it's a good thing, since none would ever guess I was really a computer geek.

 

This is in Derby, as was the fight a few weeks ago. Stoke isn't much better, although the violence in stoke seems to be predominantly Middle Eastern gangs against black gangs. There's the odd bit of harassment against students too and sex attacks are on the rise against female students also.

 

I have a beard and a lip-ring so I get called an Emo/Greb/Goth depending on which particular insult they feel like throwing around that day.

It's not so bad in the rural areas I've lived and I've never had any problems (no I'm not a body-builder!) , but it's definitely getting worse. I too have lived (and travelled) in plenty of foreign countries and the grass isn't always that greener and the cost of living and standard of living when compared to wages isn't always that good.

For example having worked and employed people in New York the wages are (for ordinary folk) much lower than in the UK, the rents higher, the standard of living lower (me no likey Queens where people can afford to live). I've lived in France and the taxes are higher, but the standard of living in rural areas is much higher, but Paris has some very dodgy areas. Japan is very safe but crowded, cramped, very expensive and the sprawling industrialised cities yucky. Spain is mostly great but the cities do have some very rough areas (I've lived in Madrid, Granada and other small towns) and isn't as cheap as it used to be and try getting a decent broadband connection or anything done in a hurry! I've lived in Ecuador and it's so cheap and the country amazing, but you wouldn't want to walk down the wrong street or carry much in your pockets (not that I ever had any problems).

I live in NZ now and it's got such a high standard of living, so much to do and stunning, unspoilt scenery. Does it have problems? Oh yes... there are organised gangs, gun crime, the cost of living and petrol has gone-up by 25% in the past year, the economy is small and fragile and plenty of people are struggling - hundreds of thousands are emigrating to Australia, house prices are falling, industries are closing, inflation's rising and interest rates are a whopping 10%.

 

There are plenty of countries where you can have a great quality of life but many of them only if you can earn sterling from home. I hope it works out for you Eggman (and anyone else wanting to emigrate) - I'd recommend NZ to anyone and have a spare room at reasonable rates!!!!!

I hear on you on the grass is greener part - in the Philippines I could afford a car at the age of 15 and to fill the tank cost 50p but on the downside I had a gun put to my head in a club one night.

There are always ups and downs to everywhere but as far as I'm concerned there are more downs than ups in the UK !

I think this rise in fear of violence and actual violence is very worrying. I read somewhere recently that there's actually been a decline in violent crime in this country over the last couple of years, but every tabliod I see lately has a front page article about someone being stabbed.

I think the media and government play a large role in this culture of violence we endure, and I would even go so far as to suggest that it is to a degree encouraged. You see, the more we worry about the fact that we don't feel safe to go out on the streets anymore, the less likely we are to have the time to think about actual policy, and possibly respond to it, be that in the form of protest, trade unions or any kind of dissent/ civil disobedience. I believe that any state/ government which is truly committed to promoting peaceful interactions among the population must to an extent lead by example. It sounds a bit far fetched, but if you see your parents behaving aggressively, you're more likely to do so yourself. If the state is aggressive (Iraq, anyone), what message are we absorbing, and what are we learning about how the state responds to certain presures? Violence breeds violence, regardless of who is the aggressor. We hear daily about our armed forces' duties in the middle east, and unsurprisingly, this is now the ethnic group least tolerated back home.

I also think economics has a big part to play. Globalisation is showing itself to be a one way ticket for wealth to travel from the poor to the rich. What are young people in Britain learning about their future? That it's going to be hard to make ends meet, that you're going to feel politically impotent, that you're going to be poorer in a society that values possessions over all else, the list goes on. Of course these people are going to become reactionary, but, and here's the real crux, because they have been so de-politicised, these frustrations are acted out as anti social behaviour. Respect for society is abandoned, and minorities are feared and demonised. There is no constructive channel for the secondary 'educated' chav to express his/ her frustration at the world (s)he finds himself in, so it all gets channelled into incidents such as Cabbage is descibing.

I'm not so naive as to presume that all acts of anti-social behaviour and violence can be reduced to the circumstances I am discussing here, and I'm sure parenting is incredibly important in this respect. However, how much parenting can two people do when they both need to work 40+ hours per week to pay the bills and put food on the table? And how much energy will they have after work when they are with their children? I could go on forever, so I'll spare you the rest of my political rant.

 

Sorry to hear you've witnessed violence again Cabbage, I do hope that's it for the rest of your life. Hope you don't lose heart with Blighty, I think we have it in us to turn it around, but it's going to take something pretty special to kick it all off.

Peace.

It's not far-fetched notbanksy - George Orwell predicted it, just got the year wrong. Our government and the US government want us to be afraid so that we hand over liberties, taxes and generally don't question anything. The 'War on Terror' and 'Climate Change' are brilliant political ploys - they're never-ending, non-specific and anyone who tries to prove otherwise is attacked as unpatriotic or ignorant.

 

But there is a decay in society that I think, ironically enough, stems from being better off than ever before. When you don't have to worry about starving or surviving and everyone's sold the 'American Dream' approach (everyone's entitled to everything) and couple it with the liberal political correct hijacking, you suddenly end-up with 'society' being blamed for everything and the concept of 'underprivileged'. No-one is accountable for their actions - it's always someone else to blame, there can be no social values in case it offends someone and there's no punishment, we must 'understand' wrong-doers.

 

This isn't racist because it mentions no race, but mass immigration has hastened this slide. It means nothing to be English these days - our traditional values are construed as racist and we must change our society to accommodate. And, as I already mentioned, with good earnings the vast majority of immigrants are economic and do not move to England for the way of life - just to make more money. In that kind of environment there is no national pride, no identity and no real society.

 

The countries that have been mentioned do have immigration, but they also have a strong national identity - France, Spain, the US... In fact I admire France's tough stance on protecting their culture against the bombardment of Starbuckization and wish we would re-assert our national identity. I never go to another country and assert my values - I absorb and then immerse into their culture - that's why I travel.

 

I love politics!

The thing is mainly down to bad parenting and the government doing jack ****. I used to like the UK but its turning into a complete mess - if its not already one. Either shoot the trouble makers or send them into the army.

 

There have been several stabbings in the past few weeks and I don't know about anyone else but im starting to get a bit weary now especially since on happened quite near to where I live - Lucky I live in the country.

 

They know they can get away with it because the government is such a push over - its all very well Gordon Brown saying about the 0 tolerance policy etc etc but when will it be enforced. I think the police should carry guns again like they do in most country's or at least having a stricter prison system.

 

I have lost all faith in this country and am hoping to leave within the next two to 3 years.

 

I think a vote of no confidence may be coming closer...

 

Cabbage howcomes you did get an ambulance for the kids?

I agree with everything said in this forum - sorry about your hassles Cabbage... as for myself, I do get nervous too - as much as I'm much like eggman (covered in tattoo's) - my normal 'punk' look goes a long way for making me a target... anybody different becomes an easy target...

 

The notion of respect has been lost... why I'll never know... but it is a sad state of affairs right now - hence why my wife and I are looking to sell our kidney's for green cards...

 

 

The police need to be armed! They're seen as a complete joke. What are two officers going to do when a gang of 8 take them on - try smack them with their little sticks, spray them with mace...

 

 

I'll gladly stand in line to help clean up the streets - it is time for action!

our police men have guns and believe me its not the only answer, but usually the people they shot have it coming, and they also carry tasers o and what exactly is a "chav"

Now I know what everyone is saying about everything being at an epidemic, but it has always been this bad for the past 10 years I grew up through it I have seen a lot of shat lol. The press are making a big deal because stabbing is getting worse but knife crime hasn't wen tthrough the roof it has just got younger it is now deemed cool to carry a knife where as 3-4 years ago when I was in the "cool" park going crowd no-one would dare have a knife but now it must be cool to have a knife.

Welll we're about in a depression here so were not much better, damn gas

We are in a recession and Actually we have been climbing out of it Slowly ( despite the two large Banks incident ) Things get harsh then climb.

 

I agree with everything said in this forum - sorry about your hassles Cabbage... as for myself, I do get nervous too - as much as I'm much like eggman (covered in tattoo's) - my normal 'punk' look goes a long way for making me a target... anybody different becomes an easy target...

 

The notion of respect has been lost... why I'll never know... but it is a sad state of affairs right now - hence why my wife and I are looking to sell our kidney's for green cards...

The police need to be armed! They're seen as a complete joke. What are two officers going to do when a gang of 8 take them on - try smack them with their little sticks, spray them with mace...

I'll gladly stand in line to help clean up the streets - it is time for action!

 

Your police don't use taser's and guns?

Your police don't use taser's and guns?

 

Tasers are only just coming-out of the trial stage and we have armed police but normal police aren't armed. But then again, armed police doesn't stop gun crime in the US!

No they have batons ok we r in a recession but I dont think we r rising out of it, id say its even right now

The thing with the police getting armed and stuff is the courts. You see these cases where a copper tryes to stop a theif by punshing them or somthing, the criminal takes the copper to court and wins...the copper (One of the only 1's who are brave enough to "fight" crime) gets demoted or his badge taken! i mean WTF?

thats when you taser there a$$

They know they can get away with it because the government is such a push over - its all very well Gordon Brown saying about the 0 tolerance policy etc etc but when will it be enforced. I think the police should carry guns again like they do in most country's or at least having a stricter prison system.

Which of these countries has the most prisoners per head of population? Sudan, Syria, China, Burma, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe or England and Wales? We win, or rather lose: I have ranked these countries in reverse order(1). On this measure, England and Wales have a more punitive judicial system than most of the world’s dictatorships. ref: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008/06/24...orged-manacles/

 

The USA has the largest population of prisoners per head of population at 1% - that's astonishing!

 

I think we can safely say that our prison system is failing - according to govt figures, the amount of serious violent offences (recorded by police) is falling (2% last year). So what is the answer?

 

If the police carry guns, are we just motivating criminals to acquire them too? I don't think this is the answer. For example, remember the poor chap the met police shot thinking he was a terrorist. He died, he was innocent. Sure, the guns will be there to deter crime, but don't be fooled into thinking they won't be used, and with what consequences?

 

My personal thought is that people need to come together and form communities. Anti social behaviour thrives on fear, the fear we digest every morning over breakfast and a newspaper. If large groups of people made a stand, and acted safely and calmly in enough numbers, thugs and petty hooligans will soon find their efforts fruitless. Hell, maybe they'll even go out and do something useful with their lives instead. Of course, once communities are formed, you may start to see the emergence of trade unions and pressure groups, and that won't do at all. Big poilitical incentive to prevent this.

 

I think wizely has a point too - too much affluence, and not enough accountablility. We are sold the idea that we can have anything we want, and a lot of people end up with the feeling that the world owes them a favour. What is the real incentive to behave if you're a thug in 21st century Britain?

Well though the US is nice, you have to remember that we have a lot more violence here. In Philly alone there is a murder or two a night. I'm not saying there aren't nice places even in Philly, but you get this crap everywhere. Especially in the USA. Now if you move to bubble-crap you will not deal with the urban sh!t but you'll then get the red necks and the racist BS. As far as Spain and even Italy there's a lot more of a police presence there because, like New Jersey in the states, it's more of a police state. Now I'm not saying that the police state that i'm referring to is bad but there are a helluva lot more cops in Jersey and a hellva lot more ways to get pulled over in Jersey than in PA. I'm assuming the same is for Spain and Italy. Though I know I'm making a rather broad generalization.

 

I think instead of blaming the country as a whole you need to look at the areas of where things happen.

 

But what do I know, I just know the Northeast USA. But that's IMHO.

... a lot of people end up with the feeling that the world owes them a favour.

 

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there notbanksy!

 

Although I know this is a massive simplification, my overwhelming feeling is that it's all a matter of respect. In the same way you described an aggressive state, aggressive parents and therefore aggressive children, we have a state which shows little-to-no respect for it's people's wishes. Parents that don't know how to respect their children, and therefore children which not only get no respect, but also who have never learned the concept (the real concept of respect, not "shut up or I'll beat you silly fear-based respect).

 

When you're a teenager, you crave respect. You want your views, opinions and ideas to be accepted as important, worth hearing. After being told what to do, what to think, how to behave as a child, coming out of that and becoming an adult is all about finding yourself, your ideas and gaining "credibility". So many kids in this country are struggling to do that because everywhere they turn (home/school etc) no one takes them seriously. So they find another way to be taken seriously. A knife seems to do the trick.

 

This all boils down to society having no values, which has also been said. We don't know what we stand for, what our principles are, or how to accept those who are different.

 

Again, I'm simplifying, and the cycle can be fallen into, or broken out of. I really cringe every time I see a mother screaming at her child to "Shut the F*** up" though.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there notbanksy!

 

Of course he did - he was paraphrasing me!!!!!!!

I don't think arming the police is the answer here, if the police are armed then the chances are chavs are eventually going to get their hands on guns, it's not going to take much for a chav to grab a police mans gun from its holster and run off into a waiting car.

 

My personal thought is that people need to come together and form communities. Anti social behaviour thrives on fear, the fear we digest every morning over breakfast and a newspaper. If large groups of people made a stand, and acted safely and calmly in enough numbers, thugs and petty hooligans will soon find their efforts fruitless. Hell, maybe they'll even go out and do something useful with their lives instead. Of course, once communities are formed, you may start to see the emergence of trade unions and pressure groups, and that won't do at all. Big political incentive to prevent this.

 

I would love to see this happen, although that's how the current gangs (Burger bar boys, London Black/Middle Eastern) gangs formed. They formed with the intention of protecting their communities with good intentions, but now they don't need protecting anymore there are a lot of angry men with a lot of energy and nowhere to focus it, which is where organised crime comes in.

 

I think one of the major problems with the UK justice system is that the guys who pass laws or do all the serious work are all 60+. Not that I'm ageist or anything but I think it would really help to get some young true working class folk back into the justice system and at all levels of parliament, people like Gordon Brown are as far removed from reality as the Queen probably is.

 

Cabbage howcomes you did get an ambulance for the kids?

They were walking and could have rang themselves if they needed it, they seemed alright when I had a brief chat with them.

 

Also Curvball it's almost certainly time for action, but the chances are if people ever did form vigilante groups and whatnot the Chavs would go running to the authorities to complain. It's going to happen at some point though, someone with connections is going to have enough one day and just flip the whole thing upside down.

The report on the BBC this morning shows the problem.

 

You shouldn't label people as 'chavs' because it is derogatory.

 

It won't be long until you are arrested for calling someone a chav.

The report on the BBC this morning shows the problem.

 

You shouldn't label people as 'chavs' because it is derogatory.

 

It won't be long until you are arrested for calling someone a chav.

 

So does this mean that we're willing to put Chavs in the same level as homosexuals and immigrants? It's a disgrace, most homosexuals and immigrants are hard working decent folk, and it's completely wrong to call them either a paki (I'm not being racist, I hate people using this word) or a fag (same) respectively. However Chavs are just pure scum, they don't work, don't have any respect for anybody else and now all of a sudden they want a taboo on the word Chav?

 

It's a joke, it seems Britains stance is slowly becoming protect those who complain but let the others rot.

You're such a chavist - I should report you!

You're such a chavist - I should report you!

 

Go for it, I wonder if I could get arrested for hate speech?

 

I'm losing faith in this country at a rate of knots.

honestly guys. I think this is a global problem too. I still can't get over that your cops don't have guns. That's so strange to me. In the US the cops need guns sadly.

Our police do have guns. But they will only be called if the incident is involving a deadly weapon.

yeah, it is abit wiered thinking about the cops not having guns although, here in Spain i've never seen one of them been shot.

But I think all the little anoying "Chavs" should just get a grip on themslefts, there so blooming imature. In a way, i feel sorry for them!

I've got a map and a compass if anyone needs them to help them find the streets again

 

Generally i find walking out the front door and turning left does it for me

Strikes me as oversimplifying things to blame problems on chavs. I mean, what exactly makes someone a chav anyway? The way they dress? Way they speak? Do they have to be criminals? Is unemployment a requirement? Can you be rich and a chav?

I think there can be rich chavs arn't they the ones with the "bling"? I think the requirements to be a chav are:

 

Hate most people

Talk about having sex with people mothers

Wearing those big matching tracksuits (Even if they can afford "proper" clothes)

They can't make sense when they speak

I'm pritty sure they do have to be unemployed.

 

This is from what i've last seen (Year or 2 back) When i was in England and I guess I am a little bit biased becuase of what somthing happened a few years back about my slightly gothic style.

 

@1christopher for me to find the streets i've got to walk quite awhile...Turing left just leads me into some bushes

Yeah, I think a chavism is pretty much a life un-style. When you're ignorant, give nothing back to a society you blame for everything, can't outwit a block of cheese, want everything for nothing in return, think violence and respect are in anyway related and mistakenly believe that being 'underprivileged' is something real and something to get angry about - you're a chav.

 

Of course without liberal do-gooders that are way out of touch with reality hijacking our politics and law, you can't have chavs. You don't get them until you put the idea in a yobbos mind (after all they're incapable of independent thought) that they're 'underprivileged', that society has done them wrong, that they're right to get angry, that the rest of us need to 'understand' them not punish them, that they aren't responsible for their own actions, there are no requirements of belonging to a civilised society, that hard work isn't a necessity and getting a job is optional. Then you just punish decent citizens who stand-up to them, hamstring the police and the courts and tax the arses of everyone to support them - et voila - you get chavs.

 

Oh, and If I turn left out my place I'm in the forest!!!!!