Evening all,

 

 

I constantly have new ideas for websites that I want to create and I'm getting sick of always having to hire other people for large sums of money to build them for me. I have several websites right now that bring me in enough money for a living so I've decided for the foreseeable future I want to start learning web design and development in hopes of pursuing several of the website Ideas I have locked away in the mind vault. I'm a pretty obsessive person and generally tend to spend 10+ hours a day on projects when I enjoy them, so I'm definitely serious about learning.

 

 

Here in Ireland we have a welfare system in place that offers free courses and free online courses to unemployed (I'm unemployed officially) people. I've signed up to several online courses such as

 

# Dreamweaver CS4

# Flash CS4

# Photoshop CS4

 

There is also a 14 week course starting in a month and a half labeled MySQL & PHP for Dynamic Websites. Is this worth taking a look at?

 

 

and I'm aware of www.w3schools.com for everything else.

 

 

 

However I have a bunch of questions regarding the web design industry and web design in general.

 

 

- Where do I start? In what order should I learn HTML, CSS, PHP etc.... Could somebody give me a rough outline of each of their purposes?

 

- I have a vague understanding of the difference between design and development. Design being what the user sees on the page and development being the structure and the code behind the picture. How does one go about learning the design side of the website? What software should I get? Should I be practicing drawing?

 

- What are some good online free/non free web design/development resources for advanced and beginner web developers/designers?

 

- What soft wares do you use? Which should I use? I'm currently using a macbook pro.

 

- Is graphic design something I should be trying to learn also?

 

- How important is math in web development. It's been a long time since I dusted off a math textbook but I have no qualms going back and refreshing the brain a bit.

 

- Is there any e-books I should buy/download that will help with the learning process?

 

 

 

- Any other advice in general?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really appreciate all the help.

- Where do I start? In what order should I learn HTML, CSS, PHP etc.... Could somebody give me a rough outline of each of their purposes?

 

HTML and CSS are the foundations of everything on the web, HTML for markup/structure and CSS for presentation/styling. You need to master these first. From there you could go the programming route and start looking at javascript and a programming language such as PHP, or the other route which might be user interface/usability/accessibility specialisation.

 

- I have a vague understanding of the difference between design and development. Design being what the user sees on the page and development being the structure and the code behind the picture. How does one go about learning the design side of the website? What software should I get? Should I be practicing drawing?

 

"Design" can mean many things, it can mean how a site is presented, you could design a process that a visitor follows through a site, or design an application (programming) that works in a certain way, so it isn't always a visual thing.

 

For writing any sort of code you'll need a text editor, search these forums as there are many threads about software.

 

- What soft wares do you use? Which should I use? I'm currently using a macbook pro.

 

For Mac look at Coda, Textmate, there are others but they are two of the popular ones

 

- Is graphic design something I should be trying to learn also?

 

It can help but remember that the web is primarily a text based medium

 

- How important is math in web development. It's been a long time since I dusted off a math textbook but I have no qualms going back and refreshing the brain a bit.

 

For basic HTML/CSS work and designing visualu styling you will need to calculate things like widths, heights, proportions both and fixed values (eg pixels) and & values. All basic maths really!

 

- Any other advice in general?

Don't learn software, learn to hand code and not be reliant on proprietry tools such as Dreamweaver and Photoshop

Thanks for the reply!

 

Should I be learning the new versions of HTML and CSS? HTML5 or whatever? Or should I learn the old vesions first?

I'd say learn HTML5 and CSS3 but also be aware that old browsers won't support everything for many years to come so the ability to code in HTML4 + CSS2.1 will still be useful for the next few years at least.

Just to add my 4pence mate.

 

I've signed up to several online courses such as

 

# Dreamweaver CS4

# Flash CS4

# Photoshop CS4

 

There is also a 14 week course starting in a month and a half labeled MySQL & PHP for Dynamic Websites. Is this worth taking a look at?

 

In my opinion I would drop Dreamweaver and unless you plan on making animations and/or games drop Flash too. You wouldn't learn much that's useful in direct relation to web design/dev from Dreamweaver and Flash is dying fast on the website front(still used for animation and games, mind). Even though they're free, that time could be better spent learning something else.

 

- Where do I start? In what order should I learn HTML, CSS, PHP etc.... Could somebody give me a rough outline of each of their purposes?

 

Blue gave a good outline so I'll just +1 to the specialistion. It can be a daunting task to learn both front-end and back-end, people usually specialise. You say you want to make your own websites instead of buying them but depending on the type of site it could take a long time to make both visually appealing sites and dynamic back ends. You could always focus on one and get the other done on contract.

 

How does one go about learning the design side of the website? What software should I get? Should I be practicing drawing?

Have a look(read: Google) at design theory, typography and UX. Most of the principles for print design are also applicable on the web.

 

- What are some good online free/non free web design/development resources for advanced and beginner web developers/designers?

Free = Google.

Non-Free = Try Lynda.com and ThinkVitamin. Require a membership but excellent resources.

 

- Is graphic design something I should be trying to learn also?

 

I would say yes if you are wanting to do the design/front-end side of things. Although the web is mostly text, people tend to look at the pretty ones more often, especially these days. Learning the principles of graphic design can't be a bad thing, as I said earlier, a lot of it applies to web design. Though there's a hell of a lot to take in so be choosy, there's specialisations in graphic design too, such as logo design and advertising. Don't try to be a jack of all trades and master of feck nil.

 

- How important is math in web development. It's been a long time since I dusted off a math textbook but I have no qualms going back and refreshing the brain a bit.

Since the really early days of personal computer's we've had this great program built into our system called "Calculator"

 

- Is there any e-books I should buy/download that will help with the learning process?

 

I can suggest a few of my faves on the design front;

 

Principles of Beautiful web design

Bulletproof web design

Don't make me think

Designing for the web < this one's free! <3 Boulton.

 

Don't know if they're all available as ebooks though. And you'll have to wait for someone to suggest any back-end books

 

Hope this helps!

 

Goodluck,

~evu.

Edited August 23, 201114 yr by evu

thanks for the great reply

Hey there! Just to add my thoughts.

 

You are right that there is a distinction between design and development. What people generally tend to do is choose on of the two. Now, it sounds to me that with what you want to do you will be better off doing development. So.. start with HTML / CSS, these are the two languages that make the foundation of any web page. HTML is the structure / content and CSS is the layout and styling / look and feel. Every other language beyond this (JS / PHP) requires a solid understanding of these two so you need to get them down!

 

Briefly - after this you would look at Javascript and then PHP / MySQL. Javascript is a programming language that is used for more advanced presentation and interaction on websites. It is a 'client side' language which means it all runs in the browser and does not typically carry out the 'data processing' kind of tasks. It's for people to show off basically! PHP / MySQL is server side which means it all runs on the server.. This is where all the advanced funtionality etc happens.

 

The best way to learn is to get stuck in. If i were you i would get myself a hosting account (just go with a well known provider) and start putting websites up. Pick something that interests you.. my first site was a resource on 'Frank Abagnale'! Doing it this way you will run in to all the problems that text books etc don't warn you about. Just get as far as you can and come back here for help!

 

Does that make sense?

 

HTH

 

- G

Well you can just use html5shiv or modernizr to use html5 with older browsers.

Edited August 24, 201114 yr by rubots

Hey there! Just to add my thoughts.

 

You are right that there is a distinction between design and development. What people generally tend to do is choose on of the two. Now, it sounds to me that with what you want to do you will be better off doing development. So.. start with HTML / CSS, these are the two languages that make the foundation of any web page. HTML is the structure / content and CSS is the layout and styling / look and feel. Every other language beyond this (JS / PHP) requires a solid understanding of these two so you need to get them down!

 

Briefly - after this you would look at Javascript and then PHP / MySQL. Javascript is a programming language that is used for more advanced presentation and interaction on websites. It is a 'client side' language which means it all runs in the browser and does not typically carry out the 'data processing' kind of tasks. It's for people to show off basically! PHP / MySQL is server side which means it all runs on the server.. This is where all the advanced funtionality etc happens.

 

The best way to learn is to get stuck in. If i were you i would get myself a hosting account (just go with a well known provider) and start putting websites up. Pick something that interests you.. my first site was a resource on 'Frank Abagnale'! Doing it this way you will run in to all the problems that text books etc don't warn you about. Just get as far as you can and come back here for help!

 

Does that make sense?

 

HTH

 

- G

 

 

Welll usually my ideas come more from the design side I think than the development side. Meaning- I'll come up with an creative and unique design and look for a website that I think will generate revenue and is of use to people and from there I'll hire my guy who draws it all up (I guess he also hires a programmer or whatever). I'm a very creative person and good at art in general already and I feel learning the tools on the design end would just let me put the pictures I have in my mind onto the moniter - does that make sense? Or is it not that simple? I'd like to learn the development side simply because in an ideal world I want to be able to create the websites all on my own - even if it does take slightly longer.

 

 

What do you think? Would I be better off forgetting about learning both? Should I just learn the design end and hire developers to do the back end? Should I learn programming only and hire designers to translate my ideas onto paper? What costs more to hire, a programmer or a designer? Is it at all possible to learn both?

 

 

 

thanks again.

Welll usually my ideas come more from the design side I think than the development side. Meaning- I'll come up with an creative and unique design and look for a website that I think will generate revenue and is of use to people and from there I'll hire my guy who draws it all up (I guess he also hires a programmer or whatever). I'm a very creative person and good at art in general already and I feel learning the tools on the design end would just let me put the pictures I have in my mind onto the moniter - does that make sense? Or is it not that simple? I'd like to learn the development side simply because in an ideal world I want to be able to create the websites all on my own - even if it does take slightly longer.

 

 

What do you think? Would I be better off forgetting about learning both? Should I just learn the design end and hire developers to do the back end? Should I learn programming only and hire designers to translate my ideas onto paper? What costs more to hire, a programmer or a designer? Is it at all possible to learn both?

 

 

 

thanks again.

 

Thats interesting. i thought you meant you had ideas functionality wise. I mean.. like a website that will do X with Y. If you are a designer then you are forced pretty much to hire someone every time you want to build a site. Dev's can usually 'get by'.

 

I would not pursue both to start with. To get good at either you are looking at at least two years probably, and that is going some.. times that by two...

 

Design will only get you so far IMO. You would do that if you wanted to actually make money from doing it for other people.

 

Or am i still missing thye point!?

I'm confused, you say you can get the courses for the unemployed and yet your websites are bringing in enough for a living? Things must be easier in Ireland?

I'm confused, you say you can get the courses for the unemployed and yet your websites are bringing in enough for a living? Things must be easier in Ireland?

 

I said on paper I was unemployed. The government don't need to know about my websites.

Thats interesting. i thought you meant you had ideas functionality wise. I mean.. like a website that will do X with Y. If you are a designer then you are forced pretty much to hire someone every time you want to build a site. Dev's can usually 'get by'.

 

I would not pursue both to start with. To get good at either you are looking at at least two years probably, and that is going some.. times that by two...

 

Design will only get you so far IMO. You would do that if you wanted to actually make money from doing it for other people.

 

Or am i still missing thye point!?

 

To clarify-

 

 

I have a lot of ideas for cool websites. The websites generally are very unique looking and have great design (look good) but they also have a lot of unique functionality that goes beyond your standard website. Alot of the functionality (is that the right word?!) that I would like to add to these websites would take quite a bit of work from a developer.

 

 

On the design side I'm not really wanting to learn what good design is or what colours match etc.. I simply want to learn the tools to put the ideas in my head down on paper. The picture is already there I just want to translate it onto the moniter.

 

 

 

Does that make any sense?

On the design side I'm not really wanting to learn what good design is or what colours match etc.. I simply want to learn the tools to put the ideas in my head down on paper. The picture is already there I just want to translate it onto the moniter.

 

Then you don't really want to learn design. Design is a lot more than just putting what you see in your head on the page. Learn HTML/CSS to get a simple design on the go and learn JS/PHP/SQL for the back-end. et viola; you have all the skills to make a fully functional website. Without serious thought on the design though, not just the pretty pictures, I'm not too sure it'll be a success. Unless you have some pimpage ideas, mind.

 

~evu.

To clarify-

 

 

I have a lot of ideas for cool websites. The websites generally are very unique looking and have great design (look good) but they also have a lot of unique functionality that goes beyond your standard website. Alot of the functionality (is that the right word?!) that I would like to add to these websites would take quite a bit of work from a developer.

 

 

On the design side I'm not really wanting to learn what good design is or what colours match etc.. I simply want to learn the tools to put the ideas in my head down on paper. The picture is already there I just want to translate it onto the moniter.

 

 

 

Does that make any sense?

 

 

You need to ask yourself.. What is going to cost you more money down the line... To get graphics done or hire a programer?

 

Do your course in photoshop and get the basics down sure. If you are serious about doing these sites though, you need some dev skills down.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's not for everyone. Just give it a shot at least. A lot of successfull online entrepeneurs that i have spoken to get by with just the basic skills. It really is going to be a lot easier though if you at least understand what is going on..

 

Do your graohics on the side but on a much smaller scale.. Then by the time your are a competent programmer you will know your way around photoshop etc too and you can put together a fully functional and accepably good looking website!

 

Knowing just graphics is not a lot of use to an aspiring e-entrepeneuer...

 

Let me know what u think.

 

Edit: you absolutely should be looking in to graphic design theory. You will be amazed what you can learn and a trained eye will home in on your mistakes!

 

Incidentally, I have put my name down for this:

http://www.designforhackers.com/

 

Edited August 24, 201114 yr by greyhat

As per usual- great replies.

 

 

Right now I'm struggling with a cold and flu so I'm gulping down the vitamin C in hopes I feel better monday. Going to get everything that needs to be learned in line for monday when I dive in. Speaking of which...

 

 

 

A month and a half from now there is a php + SQL full time day course on locally which I'm going to sign on for. Meanwhile I'm going to learn the arts of HTML + CSS.

 

What do you think is the best way to go about this? Is w3schools.com sufficient? Any books/ebooks/dvds you can recommend?

 

 

 

 

Also Ive decided I'm going to take your advice greyhat. I'm going to focus mainly on the programming side of things and learn graphic design/photoshop etc on the side.

As per usual- great replies.

 

 

Right now I'm struggling with a cold and flu so I'm gulping down the vitamin C in hopes I feel better monday. Going to get everything that needs to be learned in line for monday when I dive in. Speaking of which...

 

 

 

A month and a half from now there is a php + SQL full time day course on locally which I'm going to sign on for. Meanwhile I'm going to learn the arts of HTML + CSS.

 

What do you think is the best way to go about this? Is w3schools.com sufficient? Any books/ebooks/dvds you can recommend?

 

 

 

 

Also Ive decided I'm going to take your advice greyhat. I'm going to focus mainly on the programming side of things and learn graphic design/photoshop etc on the side.

 

As i said get cracking and get some sites up!

 

Here are some rough CSS layouts to get started with

 

http://www.dynamicdrive.com/style/layouts/

 

Nothing will beat hands on experience in the long run. Just use w3 as a reference.

 

good luck and keep us posted!

As i said get cracking and get some sites up!

 

Here are some rough CSS layouts to get started with

 

http://www.dynamicdrive.com/style/layouts/

 

Nothing will beat hands on experience in the long run. Just use w3 as a reference.

 

good luck and keep us posted!

 

Just to make sure I have that correct. Those CSS layouts will let me practice my HTML without having to worry about CSS for the time being, correct? Or has my brain just gone completely foggy with this flu?

Those templates just show you how to create basic layouts. Just take one of those sites you have in your head and try to recreate the basic layout in html/css. Use w3 schools and html dog as a reference

Just to make sure I have that correct. Those CSS layouts will let me practice my HTML without having to worry about CSS for the time being, correct? Or has my brain just gone completely foggy with this flu?

 

 

HTML and CSS go hand in hand so you would start with both at once.

Right so I officially went in and signed up for the PHP and mySQL course. It's a fulltime day course that is 14 weeks long. It starts in about 6 weeks. Problem is they are going to call me for an "Aptitude test to demonstrate essential and required proficiency in (X)HTML and CSS" with mininum pass rate of 70%.

 

 

I probably have 2-3 weeks before they call me to come in for this test. Am I in over my head thinking I can learn HTML + CSS in this time?

Right so I officially went in and signed up for the PHP and mySQL course. It's a fulltime day course that is 14 weeks long. It starts in about 6 weeks. Problem is they are going to call me for an "Aptitude test to demonstrate essential and required proficiency in (X)HTML and CSS" with mininum pass rate of 70%.

 

 

I probably have 2-3 weeks before they call me to come in for this test. Am I in over my head thinking I can learn HTML + CSS in this time?

 

Its not out of the question..

 

Start swotting up on the w3 site and take the exams until your are passing 100%. But i will stress again that just reading is not enough.

 

2-3 weeks you are gonna have to give it some. Depends how they define 'aptitude'! ha.

Once again thanks for the great info. My cold and flu has cleared so the brain is back at full function (I hope!) so I'm going to start right away.

 

 

You guys have been a great help I'll keep you guys posted with updates here and I'm sure I'll have tons more questions

Once again thanks for the great info. My cold and flu has cleared so the brain is back at full function (I hope!) so I'm going to start right away.

 

 

You guys have been a great help I'll keep you guys posted with updates here and I'm sure I'll have tons more questions

 

no problem

 

Maybe look in to some very basic hosting with 1and1 or something.. so you can put sites up and get feedback.. Will run you about £2 / mo or something. Let me know if u want any more info!

Sounds like a good idea, I'll take a look at it.

 

 

 

I downloaded (yes, illegally) all of the think vitamin videos. They are incredibly helpfull. I think I'll sign on for a membership there as well.

good work!

Edited August 25, 201114 yr by greyhat

I have to admit this is strangly addictive.

I have to admit this is strangly addictive.

 

Check your PM's!

 

And yes.. if thats how u feel then you made the right choice!

I cant quote as Im on my phone. However declaring yourself unemployed when you are in actual fact earning is a serious crime known as tax evasion. You can go to jail for tax evasion so if I was you I'd seriously reconsider my attitude to paying taxes, unless of course the idea of a prison sentance getting it up the bumbum appeals to you.

And then you go on to admit you illegally downloaded thinkvitamin videos. People like you do a serious disservice to our industry. Unbeleivable, I'm 23 and when I was earning £100 for a website two years ago I damn well paid my taxes.

I cant quote as Im on my phone. However declaring yourself unemployed when you are in actual fact earning is a serious crime known as tax evasion. You can go to jail for tax evasion so if I was you I'd seriously reconsider my attitude to paying taxes, unless of course the idea of a prison sentance getting it up the bumbum appeals to you.

 

I see where you guys are coming from. I'm used to posting on private forums. As for the "tax evasion" it's called being taken advantage of by a government and banks. People in Ireland can't find work with PHDs due to a corrupt government and banking system. Many people I know who have masters/degrees/phds are on welfare barely able to feed their families because of it. So I have several websites that bring me in enough money so I don't have to eat rice with eggs 5 times a day so what? If the bankers can take advantage of a system why can't I?

 

As for the illegally downloaded videos... Why would I pay a membership to something when I don't know what their product is like? If I ever illegally download something and I like it I generally buy it. I have a collection of hundreds of blu ray dvds. If I download it and it's a terrible dvd well then it doesn't really deserved to be purchesed in my mind anyway. Also as I said above, because I was so impressed with think vitamins product Ive decided to become a member. A member they wouldnt have had if I didn't download a few of their videos.

 

 

 

Just sayin'

Edited August 26, 201114 yr by Sean33

Think vitamin allow you to view a load of videos for free. The guys at carsonified provide an excellent service that's well worth paying for, besides, they put out new videos every day so I'm sure the warez you downloaded wasn't a complete collection. Imo you also shouldn't be stating that **** on the forum mate.

I don't like the tax system, and I equally hate bankers, and I believe there's a lot the western world has got wrong that basically equates to some fat rich dude ****ting on all us little guys.

 

I still pay my taxes.

 

Just sayin'.

 

At the end of the day, it's your life, do what you want, just don't be surprised if you do get done for it.

I don't like the tax system, and I equally hate bankers, and I believe there's a lot the western world has got wrong that basically equates to some fat rich dude ****ting on all us little guys.

 

I still pay my taxes.

 

Just sayin'.

 

At the end of the day, it's your life, do what you want, just don't be surprised if you do get done for it.

 

If I had a regular job I'm obviously going to pay taxes. My websites don't bring me in 1000s a week buddy. Some of my websites bring in revenue in such a way that they don't show up on the radar. I don't have a system set up in place that lets me get away from paying taxes or anything.. trust me the government aren't looking to throw 25 year olds who can't find work into jail because they make a few hundred a week from websites they created. Especially when all the money I make goes back into the economy anyway.

 

Anyway this is very off topic...

Edited August 26, 201114 yr by Sean33

If I had a regular job I'm obviously going to pay taxes. My websites don't bring me in 1000s a week buddy. Some of my websites bring in revenue in such a way that they don't show up on the radar. I don't have a system set up in place that lets me get away from paying taxes or anything.. trust me the government aren't looking to throw 25 year olds who can't find work into jail because they make a few hundred a week from websites they created. Especially when all the money I make goes back into the economy anyway.

 

Anyway this is very off topic...

 

Stop making excuses, it's pathetic. Pay your taxes like everybody else, having a regular job has bugger all to do with it.

 

I hope you get caught.

because they make a few hundred a week from websites they created

 

"A few" means three or more, which means you're making the equivalent of a salary of £15k after tax. This isn't just a harmless little hobble for a few extra quid.

 

I'm not "some fat rich dude". Some months I make more than others, and my first tax year after I started freelancing (about 6-7 months) I didn't een make enough money to be liable for income tax. I still declared it all.

 

This forum is a good place to rub shoulders with the sort of people who already know the stuff you want to learn (like Mike there), so it might be a good idea not to rub them up the wrong way. Consider this a friendly warning. A less friendly warning: don't discuss warez again. I have a banhammer.

 

On to the more friendly stuff: is there anything else about web design and development you'd like to know?

"A few" means three or more, which means you're making the equivalent of a salary of £15k after tax. This isn't just a harmless little hobble for a few extra quid.

 

I'm not "some fat rich dude". Some months I make more than others, and my first tax year after I started freelancing (about 6-7 months) I didn't een make enough money to be liable for income tax. I still declared it all.

 

This forum is a good place to rub shoulders with the sort of people who already know the stuff you want to learn (like Mike there), so it might be a good idea not to rub them up the wrong way. Consider this a friendly warning. A less friendly warning: don't discuss warez again. I have a banhammer.

 

On to the more friendly stuff: is there anything else about web design and development you'd like to know?

 

Hey man. I'm a friendly guy don't want to rub anybody the wrong way. Appreciate the warning. As a last note on my "tax evasion" I'm not making 15,000 pound a year, try half that. I'ts a little cash on the side that lets me pay my rent. When you graduate college with a law degree and can't find work for a year because the government decided to completely destroy the lives of half the nation by robbing us all blind you tend to have some resentment towards the system. Maybe mike is right and my moral compass has gone wrong but personally I'm happy bringing in my 180-200 euro a week cash that lets me get my dog the food she likes and helps pay the rent.

 

 

 

As for the advice, thanks for the offer! Greyhat has been helping me out a ton in PMs and has given me some webspace to play around with so I think I'm sorted for now. If I have any questions I'll make sure to ask here. Thanks again guys.

Stop making excuses, it's pathetic. Pay your taxes like everybody else, having a regular job has bugger all to do with it.

 

I hope you get caught.

 

Alright man. Maybe you're right. As I said above I'm happy to bring in some cash in the side that lets me pay the rent. Hopefully you can see past this and we can get along? I'm not actually a bad guy

 

Anyway all comments are appreciated!

I'm sure you're not a bad guy. I was in exactly the same position as you. I graduated into a recession and the worst graduate jobs market of all time. I had to slog it in a shop and a call centre whilst I taught myself web design. We've all, mostly, had it tough, but we all still have to be contributing members of society. So I had exactly the same problem as you.

 

Good luck with your work.

Practicing by doing is without a doubt the best method for learning. I read over the basics of HTML and watched about an hour or two worth of videos and now I'm just trying to design a site using w3schools.com as a reference. Finding it tough to figure out what is causing certain problems etc but it's definetly making me learn faster I feel.

Edited August 26, 201114 yr by Sean33