July 25, 201016 yr Before I start, I just want to say my written English is ****e, so sorry if it is hard to understand. Well at the beginning of this month I began a new job as a "web designer / developer" working from home 4 days a week and 1 day in the office. The company that I'm now employed with used to outsource work to me when I was working full time freelance. I wasn't earning a huge great deal of money, but I was earning enough so that I could live on each month. I had my good weeks and I had my bad weeks. But due to the fact that my girlfriend fell pregnant, she wanted me to get a full time job so that we could have a guaranteed weekly wage coming in. Then this job offering came up, and I jumped at the chance to have a guaranteed wage. I went and had a meeting with the owner of the company, we talked about what was expected of me each week. The hours of work etc etc Before I went up for the meeting, I knew exactly what I wanted to be earning, and wasn't going to work for any less. He asked me what I would like as a yearly salary and I said, you tell me what you are willing to offer, as my idea of a salary and your idea of a salary would be 2 completely different things. He said he was prepared to pay me £18,000 per year as long as I met the targets each month. This was more than I was expecting so of course I said yes. He showed me what he wanted me to complete by the end of the month. [Design & build a 1 page website][Design a website][Design about 35 banners (600*200)][A few basic updates to a website][build a website I designed] That was fine, that should keep me going for about 2 weeks. Anyway, this is the list I have ended up doing so far this month. [A banner design][built a 6 page website][PayPal subscription integration into a wordpress site (I have never did this before)][Website template design][Website template design][Website template design][Website template design][Website build][website build][website template build][website site build] Out of the original list he has given me, I have completed 3 things, still have to complete another thing, and awaiting client feedback from another. On Wednesday (my day in the office) he pulls me into his office, and says he doesn't think I'm worth the £18000 we originally agreed, and he said he thinks I'm worth £15000 (which he is going to start paying me next month) I replied to him saying that I have done a lot more than he has asked me to do. Also because I'm working from home, I'm using my own computer, paying my own electric, paying my own broadband, and also paying for heating. It costs me £20 / £30 (depending on traffic & how fast I go) to drive up and down to his office every Wednesday (180 miles). My work is of high quality, I do what I'm asked to do plus more. I work maybe a few hours extra in the evening to read up some things. We are going to have a meeting on Wednesday, and I would like some advice on what I should say to him or what I should do in this situation. Sorry for my bad written English!!
July 25, 201016 yr It is tempting to say your boss is a tosser, but that is not constructive nor helpful. Since you have worked freelance for them before, my guess is that he should know what you are "worth", and now he might be trying to get away with less. I would suggest you stand your ground, though, and see this constructively. Politely ask and try to figure out why he thinks you're not "worth" 18000 quid, as was his suggestion. Ask what you would have to do to convince him otherwise. There is a possibillity that someone higher up are looking at money in, money out, and that your boss is only the messenger? Don't use the argument of paying for sparks, broadband etc. I don't think this is what it is really about. There is a possibillity that they expect you, as an employee, to behave slightly differently than as a freelance: I hate to say this, but communication might help - you know, status mails, sketches, cc anyone involved, ask questions. Don't pester people though, but give them a little more info than they technically need, about where things are at, and where they're heading. Be quick at answering their mails. Call them. When you pay a freelance piece-by-piece, you don't care how or how long it takes, really. When you employ someone though, people seem to like to feel to be in "control" of them. Keep reasonable track and timesheets for the jobs you do, and send them in now and then. I have worked both in Northern Ireland and the Republic, and I found that the communication expected of me was different than what I am used to. My employers there seemed not to have the same trust and faith as I am used to, and the was little freedom to manouver. I was also, in one job, told they had to deduct my pay. I had kept meticolous lists of what I had done at any given time. He was not interested in seeing this. I politely refused ("deduct my pay? don't think I'd be very interested in that"), the guy said I should "think about it, and we'll have a meeting again wednesday". He didn't show up. He didn't show up the next day either. Nor the day after that. He didn't call, he didn't leave a message. I honestly thought f*** this, packed my tools and left, essentialy, the country. Not a solution for you though :-) Wish you all the best. It seems indeed you make quality stuff. And keep in mind that it is probably more stress for them to replace you, with a new person where they have to go through that whole getting-to-know, checking results-hassle. You seemed to be skilled, they know you, and that counts for something.
July 26, 201016 yr have you got a contract or something in writing stating that they are going to pay you £18000 a year?
July 26, 201016 yr if you have a contract then he has not got a foot to stand on if there is no contract bend over.. he could do anything
July 26, 201016 yr I can't believe the cheek on some people to be honest... Sadly mate I don't think I can offer an advice other than what's above... Stand by your guns and even if you drop your wage, make sure it's not too much. Good luck and let us know how you get off.
July 26, 201016 yr Can't really give you much advise because I'm not even at that stage of my life yet! But I would be really interested to know what the outcome is because this sounds completely unfair and you should not have to reduce your salary after doing more work that what was initially expected. Keep us updated mate and goodluck.
July 26, 201016 yr Good luck and let us know how you get off. Actually, could you avoid telling us that...
July 26, 201016 yr I knew exactly what I wanted to be earning, and wasn't going to work for any less. He said he was prepared to pay me £18,000 he said he thinks I'm worth £15000 (which he is going to start paying me next month) Is £15,000 less then what you were willing to work for initially? - If yes, leave. If not, prove your worth £18K - at least you'll have a record of work for your next employer when you decide to leave.
July 26, 201016 yr Well, I wouldn't expect to make a deal on £18,000 to then be told I'll only be paid £15,000. If he thinks your work is of a high enough standard to keep you in the company then he obviously considers your work good enough and therefore should be paying you the amount agreed. He shouldn't be going back on his word. But, I would advise not to do anything too rash like walking away, unless you can find another job or more private clients as then you'll be earning no money. Consider your options and just do what feels right at the time. You're going to have to play it by ear at the time I think. Maybe stay there to stay employed, then keep looking for another job. As time goes on and your salary rises, you may even feel comfortable staying there longer term. I think that's what I'd do, but I'd also explain to him that I felt he was unfairly going back on the original agreement. Best of luck.
July 26, 201016 yr I agree with DesignCommunication. Just out of curiosity: you other UK-based people here: 18000 quid for full-time work, is it normal/reasonable/fair?
July 26, 201016 yr Don't walk out whatever you do...The experience will go well on your CV... Thats what I keep telling myself, im on £13500
July 26, 201016 yr Just out of curiosity: you other UK-based people here: 18000 quid for full-time work, is it normal/reasonable/fair? It depends on where you are based, your skill level, the firm you work for, etc etc.
July 26, 201016 yr It depends on where you are based, your skill level, the firm you work for, etc etc. yes, I realize that, but was thinking in relation to the work Tyler here is doing.. expecting only guesstimates :-)
July 26, 201016 yr You might be best to maybe suggest in the meeting that you will be happy to drop down to £15,000 but after 3 months you want a pay rise to the initial £18,000 salary agreed. I agree with the above though, the experience on your CV will allow you to go elsewhere after several months, even if you use it as a stepping stone to progress with your career.
July 26, 201016 yr My advice is to explain all the extra work you have done and stick by your guns. You need to ask him what part of your work he is not happy with and the defend it. what an chump!!!!!.
July 26, 201016 yr yes, I realize that, but was thinking in relation to the work Tyler here is doing.. expecting only guesstimates :-) It varies hugely. Huw is on £13500 (which is rather low) others are on £30000+ It varies even more for freelancers.
July 26, 201016 yr Author Thanks everyone for the advice and support! I'm going to take alot of it with me to me meeting on Wednesday with him, but I will keep everyone updates on the outcome. I'm hoping on Wednesday that we can come to some sort of agreement. I only agreed to work fulltime for him at the said £18000, then when it comes to him getting the contract drawn up, he decided to change it from the £18000 - £15000. As a lot of you have said, I could just accept the £15000 and use the job as experience on my C.V. and also a stepping stone to bigger and better things! Or I could come to some sort of agreement with him, stay for a year, then look else where... I'd say I will probably try my very best to get the £18000 out of him, or as close to as I possibly can, stay for the year to get the experience out of him, and then move on.
July 26, 201016 yr Maybe you can negotiate £15,000 + expenses seeing as your working from home. £250/month should do
July 26, 201016 yr Ask to see your contract in writing and get some advice because he is breaking the verbal contract he has with you, give acas a ring they give good advice
July 26, 201016 yr Business is all about the haggle - you need to get yourself a base-rate that you will accept (it may even be £15k when you think about it...) and then haggle upwards of that. Start with the £18k bid - he will come in at £15k, you go to £17k and maybe he meets you at £16,250 or something like that. It sounds like this guy isn't too hot on contracts, so make sure you don't sign a non-compete and just keep freelancing to top up your income. Working from home should allow you to juggle a full time job and some freelance projects on the side - just don't forget to declare your tax
July 26, 201016 yr Author Maybe you can negotiate £15,000 + expenses seeing as your working from home. £250/month should do How would I go about this? Ask to see your contract in writing and get some advice because he is breaking the verbal contract he has with you, give acas a ring they give good advice Who is ACAS? And you are right, he has broken the verbal agreement we made before employment started. I would only work for him if I got £18000 + per year!
July 26, 201016 yr Author Business is all about the haggle - you need to get yourself a base-rate that you will accept (it may even be £15k when you think about it...) and then haggle upwards of that. Start with the £18k bid - he will come in at £15k, you go to £17k and maybe he meets you at £16,250 or something like that. It sounds like this guy isn't too hot on contracts, so make sure you don't sign a non-compete and just keep freelancing to top up your income. Working from home should allow you to juggle a full time job and some freelance projects on the side - just don't forget to declare your tax Yeah, I would say there is probably a high chance it will end up being like that, where we are bouncing prices back and forth to we come to some sort of agreement. I've had many fall outs with him in the past over money when I was freelancing, but the past 6 months all payments have been on time. The only word to describe this guy, is an absolute chancer! He's chancing his arm at 15K thinking I will accept without any hesitation, but how wrong he is! I will take **** from no one, I don't like being ****ed about. He said as part of the contract, that I'm not allowed to do any freelance work on the side, as I would be in direct competition with him... http://www.acas.org.uk Give them a ring very helpful and they know there stuff Thanks for that
July 26, 201016 yr Author As if things weren't bad enough... there was a conversation that took place tonight over MSN. I'm an honest guy, if I agreed to something, then I will follow it through.. When we originally had the meeting about the job he made it very clear to me that there was to be no new freelance work taken on in while I worked for him in which I agreed to. I made it very clear that I had a couple of enquires from potential clients and that I had given them quotes and that if the potential clients wished to go ahead with it, then I would be carrying out the work for them as the work was got before I started the employment with him in which he said no problem. In a general conversation over MSN tonight with him, and because I had told him about these quotes I had given out and he agreed to me doing the work, I thought I would just tell him that one of my clients had came back to me and had decided to go ahead with the work. He then turned round to me and said that we agreed that no new freelance projects where to be undertaken while I was working to him. I then stated that we had agreed that I was allowed to do the projects that I had already quoted for before I began the employment with him. He disagrees and demanded for me to tell him the name of my client along with: the business name, the project price, payment terms, length of job, the company address, brief on project. An argument between both of us lasted roughly 2 hours with him spilling a pile of ****e to me at how I have broke my terms & conditions of working for him and that if I didn't give him the details to my client then he would have no choice as to sack me! The problem is that I'm due to be paid on Wednesday, and that I WILL NOT be giving him my clients details. I have told him that I will have to speak to my client on Saturday to see if it is ok for me to give the details to my employer but by this time, I will no longer be working for him! Do I have to give him the details to my client? Can he refuse to pay me, even though we agreed that I was allowed to do the outstanding work? Where do I stand? I'm owed 1 months wages at roughly £1300 and I really could not afford not to get this money! Please give me some advice
July 26, 201016 yr Author Just out of interest, where you earning more or less as a Freelancer? I was earning less as a freelancer but I didn't have all this hassle! I could afford to move into my own place, run a car, basically I could live. Don't get me wrong, I had my good months, and I had my bad months, but I survived.
July 26, 201016 yr Oh, man. this does not a promising employer-employee relationship! Call that ACAS asap! Sign nothing!
July 26, 201016 yr Tell him you have a non-disclosure agreement with the client and it was signed before you were employed by him. I had a job that I wasn't allowed to freelance in for a few month, it was in the employment agreement that I wasn't allowed to offer freelance web development services or offer any consultation of services. I really don't know how the hell he could enforce it if its done in your private time... just tell him that your not doing freelance work.
July 26, 201016 yr Ermm WTF, I haven't read all of this, just the first few posts, then thought... hmm have I accidentally been transported into another dimension? 18,000 a year as in the same rate for working in a factory? Which I've done, and it's good honest work, but ermm... Yeah 18k... **** 15k, 18k? or is this because I'm coming more from a development point of view or... I don't understand this. shouldn't this be more like 21,000 - 26,000 mark? I think I'm going more down the project management route then or AI **** 18,000 a year.
July 27, 201016 yr Ermm WTF, I haven't read all of this, just the first few posts, then thought... hmm have I accidentally been transported into another dimension? 18,000 a year as in the same rate for working in a factory? Which I've done, and it's good honest work, but ermm... Yeah 18k... **** 15k, 18k? or is this because I'm coming more from a development point of view or... I don't understand this. shouldn't this be more like 21,000 - 26,000 mark? I think I'm going more down the project management route then or AI **** 18,000 a year. I agree 18K is very low, it depends on the job and the area though. Most web design jobs here are around 20-25K, developers can get 30-35K. Junior positions on the other hand are relatively low paid, my first as a junior developer was 16K and my brother was getting 21K for loading cargo onto aeroplanes! Northern Ireland is not exactly the web design capital of the UK so maybe the supply of designers is a lot higher than the demand. I know 4 guys from NI that went to uni with me and none of them pursued a career in web design when they went home, they all went into IT support and networking.
July 27, 201016 yr Do not give him their details.... Have you signed any contracts with him regarding any of the details you verbally agreed to?? If not, then he cannot demand to know your clients detials, I believe. This man is a right chancer isn't he...bloody hell.
July 27, 201016 yr As if things weren't bad enough... there was a conversation that took place tonight over MSN. I'm an honest guy, if I agreed to something, then I will follow it through. Oh man, your boss sounds difficult! Your clients details are private. If you agreed with him that you could continue to do the work for clients you have already quoted for, he's again going back on the agreement. Your boss either has a very bad memory or he's just changing his mind because he wants the work. I'd stand my ground and remind him of the agreement. I'd tell him I'm happy to drop to £15,000 as long as the rest of the deal is honoured. If he doesn't like it, I'd give him an ultimatum by telling him to find someone else to do the same amount of work for £15,000 and say you'll walk away there and then. But, if you really can't manage without the money and he still insists, you'll have to ask your client if he minds you giving his details and look for another job asap.
July 27, 201016 yr Tell him to Get ****ed!! Seriously. Just call him up, tell him to go **** himself. Delete everything on his servers (ftp etc...) and just walk away. No contract. No records ;p I wouldn't bother mate - find yourself another agency to get some freelance work from, it isn't worth the hassle!
July 27, 201016 yr i can see this ending badly tbh you could push for 15k plus commission on any extra work you do
July 27, 201016 yr Hi Tyler I have only read a few of the main posts on here but I will try to help as best I can. Do not take the below to be legal advice as it is not, but it is the basic gist. Firstly, as I'm sure you know, do not give him your clients details unless you get permission from the client as you could be breaching data protection laws (google information commissioner for more details). From an employment basis, how long a contract did you agree at your initial meeting? If you agreed that you would work for him until further notice i.e. no end date, then you will find it quite hard enforce the £18,000 pa as until you have worked for him for 365 days he can sack you pretty much on the spot (provided you are allowed to work or are paid for the duration of your notice period, usually a month) which if you push it, baring in mind that the relationship seems to be really sour already, he will do. If you agreed a specific term for your contract to run e.g. 6 months then it doesn't matter what he says, he is legally binded to honour that contract until the end unless he gives you your notice period. It sounds like the verbal employment contract was offered and agreed on when you originally met him about the job. This is all a very very grey area legally and it is too much to go into on here so I would advise you to contact a law firm for a conversation about what you can do. They should offer you a free initial discussion (if not, go somewhere else) and be able to tell you if you have any rights/advise you on what to do. Another thing is how much of your time while you were freelancing did you spend working just for him? There is case law on this and if a large enough percentage of your working week was spent just on his matters you may be able to claim that you were already an employee of his. If this means that you have technically been working for him for over 365 days you have inferred rights and protections, like the right not to be unfairly dismissed. Again a specialist employment law firm would be able to advise you on this. Whatever the outcome, I think you should be looking for another job too as he sounds like he would be horrible to work for on a full time basis. Good luck
July 27, 201016 yr Northern Ireland is a small place, and though I agree with terydinho, it may not be so smart to tell the guy go f*** himself, though this is more than tempting. Depending on what influence he may have. Try to take it easy... J.K said some sound things.
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