About buying a new computer, but I fancy a change and the designers at my work advised getting a mac, and a few friends have advised it.

 

What advantages are there for designing on a mac compared to a pc?

There's nothing to distract you from completing your design work.

 

There are absolutely no hardware advantages, although evidence suggests that psychologically you feel better about yourself, because you feel better than everyone else.

these days? i think almost none to none, same for windows though..

 

in the old days macs had more colors

There's nothing to distract you from completing your design work.

 

There are absolutely no hardware advantages, although evidence suggests that psychologically you feel better about yourself, because you feel better than everyone else.

 

Lol.

So mac is just an ego boost?

 

It makes sense to me, they're sexy as, nobody can deny that, but absolutely everything that they do can be done using a PC, for less money, there's no reason why people design using them. I watched a technology show about the benefits of using macs for design, they had the top end PC at the time, and a top end Mac, the PC rendered quicker, started up programs quicker, used less resources, showed images better.

 

In the end they threw them both off the top of a building to see which one they could fix, they fixed the PC in a few hours, the macintosh had to wait weeks and weeks (and spend a lot of money) to fix it, because when have you ever seen a company selling parts for a Mac?

I say it all the time.... It's not the machine, it's what is behind it.

 

You're only as good as your skills. Just by using a mac doesn't mean your designs are going to be 100 times better (or better full stop)

 

The designers are talking B*****s.

 

Sorry to be so frank, but it's the truth.

 

*stands back to hear the old mac vs pc debate AGAIN*

Hehe it's only 2 designers, 1 at work and 1 at college.

But I wreckon it's just preference they've been brought up using macs where on the other hand I have been brought up on pcs, i have a mac at work but its just so hard to get use to so I don't really bother, from using a pc I know it's cheaper to fix, and apple only sell the components for a mac.

 

Just wanted to know what people thought about mac, I'll stick with my nice pc

 

Cheers

I learnt on macs at college, but as soon as it was time to get my own I went out and bought a pc. The money I saved bought me photoshop.

yup, macs used to be a must for a designer, but these days macs only have their old reputation that they are a must...so you will get fan boys and fan girls saying if you want to be a designer you must have a mac. When in reality if you want to be a designer you need to have a good sense of design. A mac won't make you a better designer, and a mac isn't better than a PC they are just the same in terms of what they can do.

 

Now-a-days it is more a preference, which OS do your prefer working with and find easiest to navigate, as colours are the same, software is practically the same although you can get different things for a pc and different ones for a mac, again this is just a preference as the main bits of software on both.

 

As traxor has said psychologically some people feel they are better because they own a mac, maybe it is their sleek design, or these people are clinging on to reasoning that no longer is true...so i think some spend all the money on a mac because it gives them a sense of being good at what they do....its a shame really that they don't have belief in their own talents

 

So really there are no advantages to a designer other than a preferences, an old reason as to why the used to be better and a warm fuzzy feeling you might get by buying something over priced

It's probably a little bit of self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it, you've got a mac so people will assume you're good, you'll fulfull your own prophecy by producing better designs, it's ridiculous.

 

*goes back to watching FMA*

You've all got some interesting opinions.

Glad I posted this now.

I've got a nice fast pc at home and got a nice pc at work, and pc's just seem more customizable.

 

Think I should get back to designing a website, what forum do you post your pictures of designs in for opinions on it?

Well if it gives people that sense of happiness who are we to deprive them of that, so long as they still take critisism and try and improve their skills rather than relying on the mystical powers of the mac.

 

off topic: Fullmetal Alchemist?

Think I should get back to designing a website, what forum do you post your pictures of designs in for opinions on it?

 

 

http://www.webdesignerforum.co.uk/index.php?showforum=28

 

That one

There's nothing to distract you from completing your design work.

 

There are absolutely no hardware advantages, although evidence suggests that psychologically you feel better about yourself, because you feel better than everyone else.

 

LOL.

I'll say this for Macs, their displays are nice, their use of gestures is nice, but they DO have a much better set of default fonts under the bonnet. On the other hand, I think PCs are much more "rough and ready" - easy to customise, easy to find freeware for etc. etc.

 

Still, as a designer, your aim is to please the audience - many of whom don't have Macs, so what you design on is largely irrelevant IMO.

LOL.

I'll say this for Macs, their displays are nice, their use of gestures is nice, but they DO have a much better set of default fonts under the bonnet. On the other hand, I think PCs are much more "rough and ready" - easy to customise, easy to find freeware for etc. etc.

 

Still, as a designer, your aim is to please the audience - many of whom don't have Macs, so what you design on is largely irrelevant IMO.

 

Good point about the fonts, I hope apple aren't trying to base there sales on there defualt fonts lol.

That would be a funny selling point!

 

I'm a mac, I have 120 default.

I'm a pc, I only have 80 =[

 

lol.

 

One thing positive about the mac, is the flurry screensaver!

But I got it for my pc.

I wouldn't be without mine (macbook) now but i found the change hard to start. I don't honestly think there's any difference...(more the way you have work things on it rather than the result) having said that i wouldn't go back to a pc and windows now that i've adjusted to the change.

I wouldn't be without mine (macbook) now but i found the change hard to start. I don't honestly think there's any difference...(more the way you have work things on it rather than the result) having said that i wouldn't go back to a pc and windows now that i've adjusted to the change.

 

It's all about personal preference I see.

Just like someone who would prefer skates to skateboard, both pretty much do the same thing (bad example lol) but two different things.

 

Thanks

i use a mac and can honestly say it will never help you make better websites than you would otherwise on a pc. (i'm still a 'mac fanboy' though :-p)

Wait, I just thought of one advantage - Macs are better at rendering Helvetica.

 

um, not sure that I'd pay the extra for that, though.

I have to say that the usual mac hating suspects have posted already so there is hardly a balanced discussion happening here. You will hear alot of misinformation, especially people making statements which under further interrogation they are totally unable to back up. Each point here I am going to make in support, if you take exception with then please address it SPECIFICALLY. I'm sick to death of the underhand, sleekit lies being peddled by you mac haters.

 

1)Mac's and PC's are not 'basically the same'. For a start their operating systems are built on completely different systems. PC's are FUNDAMENTALLY less secure than macintoshes because of the way UNIX handles user access. Further, because there are more PC's that Macs there are more viruses / spyware etc. I am NOT saying that macs are invulnerable to Viruses. Put it this way I do not know one person that uses a virus scanner on their mac computer. It is a well known fact that having to install a program that is constantly running and takes up a large amount of memory (In the case of Norton 360 for example) will hamper the performance of your computer.

 

2)The interface of OSX contains hundreds of small, subtle user benefits that I wouldn't expect PC users to understand or conceed to, but ask any mac users and they will know. The main one is Expose, windows 3D view is a poor rip-off and doesn't work nearly as well. On top of that spaces is a nice way of organizing your work environment. These features are great if you at all value productivity. Other features? System wide spell check, multitouch scrolling (you put two fingers on the touchpad and scroll left or right, great for webpages, but better for image editing). Time machine is the easiest and fastest way to backup, and that;s not because I'm technically illiterate, I've got better things to do than manually back up my machine. And now I don't have to.

 

3)It is NOT TRUE that you can get the same software for both machines. Textmate, Omnigraffle, Coda, Transmit, Silverback etc etc etc. All fantastic programs and not available for PC. Google them.

 

4)There ARE HARDWARE ADVANTAGES. Stop telling lies. What are they? Well the machine that you buy from apple has components inside it, the same components in fact that may appear inside a PC (gasp). BUT apple only deal with a small selection of suppliers, and because they have a very small range of machines, they optimize and streamline the drivers for OSX. I have never had a driver conflict or had to upgrade drivers for some specific component like I have had on PC. Because Apple have complete control over what goes into their machines, they have complete QUALITY control as well. Some people don't like the fact that they can't choose to put what ever they want into their machines. Personally I'm happy to let them choose for me.

 

Last a mac will not make you a better designer. But it is not 6 and half a dozen.

 

I watched a technology show about the benefits of using macs for design, they had the top end PC at the time, and a top end Mac, the PC rendered quicker, started up programs quicker, used less resources, showed images better.

 

SOURCE?? I call shenanigans!

 

To all those posters above, please stop posing things like.

 

"Well if it gives people that sense of happiness who are we to deprive them of that, so long as they still take critisism and try and improve their skills rather than relying on the mystical powers of the mac."

 

"you've got a mac so people will assume you're good, you'll fulfull your own prophecy by producing better designs, it's ridiculous."

 

 

It's insulting and more to the point baseless. I have time and time again provided cogent arguments for why Mac's are better to design on than PC's and you persist in this tired line of argument that mac users only like them because they are shallow, trend following, technically illiterate, proud etc, without adressing anything that I am saying. Grow up and if you have any genuine points to make please add them.

 

@Dizi- "clinging on to reasoning that no longer is true" - This is exactly what you are all doing. I know you hate macs' but can you please address any of the points I have made both on this and the other thread from yesterday.

 

Edit:

If you don't buy any of the above then consider it this way. What is your job? I would guess a designer of some description. I would say that I designers job is to create something that Is not only aesthetically pleasing but more important functional. So why hate on macs because they have aesthetic sensibilities? It's like me writing off a site you create because it looks nice and polished. Apple are not only a computer company, they are a DESIGN company. They think about tiny details that you do not realize until you start using their machines. Here is one I just noticed.

 

Copy and paste on a pc - ctrl -c or ctrl-v on a mac cmd-c ctrl-v. The same you might think? Well no actually when you think about it. Look at the two following pictures.

 

 

Notice the difference between the position of the CTRL and CMD keys? on the pc you have to stretch you hand between the two keys, whereas on a mac the keys are right next to each other. I especially notice this when I need to press CTRL and stretch up to the top row on the keyboard, I can feel my hand straining when using a pc, but that 2cm difference makes a huge difference.

 

That is good design, something so subtle that you never notice it. Now add up hundreds of those small subtle features and it adds up to something that is noticeably better.

REP!

calumbrodie I have read your post and it's very informational, biased forums lol.

Nearly all are.

 

I've taken all this into account.

1)Mac's and PC's are not 'basically the same'. For a start their operating systems are built on completely different systems. PC's are FUNDAMENTALLY less secure than mackintoshes because of the way UNIX handles user access. Further, because there are more PC's that Macs there are more viruses / spyware etc. I am NOT saying that macs are invulnerable to Viruses. Put it this way I do not know one person that uses a virus scanner on their mac computer. It is a well known fact that having to install a program that is constantly running and takes up a large amount of memory (In the case of Norton 360 for example) will hamper the performance of your computer.

 

I think that's more a Windows vs MacOS argument rather than Mac vs PC, but it's a fair point. There are definitely more security issues with Windows. Will come back to that one in a bit.

 

2)The interface of OSX contains hundreds of small, subtle user benefits that I wouldn't expect PC users to understand or conceed to, but ask any mac users and they will know. The main one is Expose, windows 3D view is a poor rip-off and doesn't work nearly as well. On top of that spaces is a nice way of organizing your work environment. These features are great if you at all value productivity. Other features? System wide spell check, multitouch scrolling (you put two fingers on the touchpad and scroll left or right, great for webpages, but better for image editing). Time machine is the easiest and fastest way to backup, and that;s not because I'm technically illiterate, I've got better things to do than manually back up my machine. And now I don't have to.

 

Thing is with the PC, there seems to be a lot more in the way of customisability. There are billions of shareware and freeware programs that add or change the basic functionality of Windows. A lot were written to emulate programs that come with the Mac. There's probably some that don't have a Windows equivalent, but that probably goes the other way too. You could argue that these things should be part of the OS and available as default, but that's maybe missing my point, which is that there are a lot more options available here for PC users. Btw, for anyone who likes UI customising/tweakage, this is a great site.

 

3)It is NOT TRUE that you can get the same software for both machines. Textmate, Omnigraffle, Coda, Transmit, Silverback etc etc etc. All fantastic programs and not available for PC. Google them.

 

Totally agree. But there are similar ones, except for maybe Silverback (I couldn't name an equivalent on the PC). I would have thought that sooner or later, either someone will make an equivalent, or it'll get ported. The main thing is that (apart from Silverback), I can do the equivalent job with PC apps, even though the app itself may be different. I use Notepad++ for coding, or if I wanted to test with the same program, there's Kompozer etc. Another important point is that industry standard software for design is available for both (Linux doesn't really have that yet, or I probably wouldn't still be using XP).

 

 

4)There ARE HARDWARE ADVANTAGES. Stop telling lies. What are they? Well the machine that you buy from apple has components inside it, the same components in fact that may appear inside a PC (gasp). BUT apple only deal with a small selection of suppliers, and because they have a very small range of machines, they optimize and streamline the drivers for OSX. I have never had a driver conflict or had to upgrade drivers for some specific component like I have had on PC. Because Apple have complete control over what goes into their machines, they have complete QUALITY control as well. Some people don't like the fact that they can't choose to put what ever they want into their machines. Personally I'm happy to let them choose for me.

 

These seems to be more about personal preference than an actual fact. Yes, there are stability and optimising benefits, but it comes with the downside of limited options. Personally, I'm a tinkerer. I like to tinker around with my PC setup. Over time, you pick things up about hardware interoperability etc and don't need that safety net so much. I totally understand why most users may prefer having a limited number of options that are almost (not totally) guaranteed to work well together, but I prefer the freedom of choice.

 

 

Regarding the keyboard thing, that's pretty easy to get around. You buy a new keyboard. There are plenty of options (that word again), including Mac ones.

 

Going back to the first point about virii and malware, I haven't caught any nasties in something like 8 years. I do think that most infections are down to 'user errors' (clicking on random email attachments and so on), but there are definite OS flaws as well (XP and earlier running as admin by default etc), but having a bit of knowledge about computer security will get around that. An OS shouldn't rely on the user to apply various programs and settings to secure it, but unfortunately Windows does. It's a minus point for Windows, but luckily it doesn't affect me so much.

 

 

In general terms, I do see why the experience of using a Mac would be preferable for most people. I've used them myself, and quite like them. It's unfortunate that most PCs are running an OS that requires users to be proactive about security and know about hardware and software to get the most out of it. The upside in my view though is that you have a much wider range of (cheaper) options and more flexibility. Personal preference, though.

I want to get a Mac soon.

 

I know it won't make me a better designer but I've always wanted a Mac because of there stability.

A fair and balanced reply. Thanks for that.

 

As you said, much of the benefits of mac comes form the operating system, but mac on osx and pc/win are synonymous. You can get that same operating system to run on a pc if you have the time (google 'hackintosh') - however I would argue the experience is not the same for various reasons.

 

I also agree that many programs are built for windows that emulate mac functionality, although I would say that running half a dozen apps to get that functionality would ultimately be detrimental to system performance eventually.

 

I also agree on your point about security. If a user knows a little about security then they should be O.K on a windows machine. I only got one bad virus in 10 years (it was CIH virus, a real nasty one) although various incidences of spyware as well.

 

Your right about buying a new keyboard, you could do that, but I was illustrating a wider point about the thought behind various design choices made in developing the entire user experience (hardware + software + support) - it wasn't a dig at pc's keyboards, just something that occurred to me.

 

Your point about hardware tinkering I also agree with, but I would say that you are probably in the minority. Most people don't want to open up their computer any more than they would their car. You are a PC mechanic if you will, and enjoy working with the bits inside, the same way as a car nut enjoys working on an engine. I think most people just want their computers to work. I admit If I wanted to put a top of the line graphics card into my machine, I couldn't - but I accept that fact and It doesn't bother me (only because it's a mac - if it was a pc I would have no trouble doing that). I would say that stability and optimisation benefits for the 95% of people who are not able/willing to spend time optimizing their hardware / driver setup counts as an advantage (at least to that 95%).

 

Your point about software is also true. Industry wide software (adobe?) is available for both, in fact at the moment, you can only get a 64 bit version of CS4 for PC, however I was only using these examples to illustrate the fact that there is in fact mac specific software (as there is pc).

 

I only keep on bashing on about this because I want those who ask questions here to get a fair and balanced view. Your post was well thought out and reasonable and I agree with it.

 

Edit: And I'm with you with the wooden desks

The Norton stuff can't really be used as an effective argument of PC vs. Mac. It's an outdated analogy, and was an incorrect one even in the past. Norton is software based - not hardwired into PCs. The user has to actually want to go out, buy it, and install it. Most people with more than half a braincell steer well clear of it because, yes, some Norton programs detrimentally affect performance. But you don't need any Norton stuff, period. 'Ghost' was the only good bit of software that came from them, and other programs now do a far better job than even that.

 

No doubt about it though, you do need an anti-virus on a PC for worry-free surfing. I use Avast, other people use AVG, they're both free and both do a great job, completely transparently.

 

And, er, that's it! You don't need any other security software on top of that so long as Windows is updated.

 

And with 2.5GHz+ dual/quad core computers being commonplace, particularly in design circles, a couple of clock cycles used by Avast or AVG is completely irrelevant in the performance stakes.

 

My 2¢ anti-FUD counter-argument.

a couple of clock cycles used by Avast or AVG is completely irrelevant in the performance stakes.

 

My 2¢ anti-FUD counter-argument.

 

Not only clock cycles, but memory use and most importantly interruption of hard disk activity (the real performance killer). Although at the top end of computer use, you shouldn't really be connecting your machine (mac or PC) to the internet at all.

Not only clock cycles, but memory use and most importantly interruption of hard disk activity (the real performance killer). Although at the top end of computer use, you shouldn't really be connecting your machine (mac or PC) to the internet at all.

 

You still following this argument? Seriously?

 

Even consumer PCs ship with 2GB as standard. Avast uses 50mb (2 x 25mb) according to Task Manager. There is NO discernable difference in performance with having an anti-virus in general use. It is utterly, utterly indistinguishable! It doesn't scan the hard-drive every minute, only briefly when an app is launched or when you access something via the web and even so the time required is unmeasurable, so once again your HD performance argument when doing something creative is FUD. When inside an app, let's say Photoshop, the antivirus doesn't spin up AT ALL. And it doesn't slow anything down even when it is doing something! Clutching at straws?

 

When exactly was the last time you used a PC? 1998? Sure sounds like it. Your arguments belong in that era.

 

Web designing, what do you need loaded up? Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Notepad+.... they don't require time-critical resources anyway!

 

I do intensive music production and also a bit of video-editing. 24 channels of 24-bit 44.1KHz audio with 1.5ms latency. - That's the CPU processing effects on 24 channels of high fidelity sound in realtime! AND THAT'S ALL TRANSMITTED OVER FIREWIRE TOO! - It's only when I push the latency down below 10ms that I have to disable the anti-virus to enable me to hit the lowest figure of 1.5ms (incidently that's also the lowest figure available!).

 

NOT ONLY THAT, I use sample-based VST-Instruments!! 2GB+ samples of piano, all in glorious 24-bit, 80+ note polyphony, amongst other VST-Is (pads, strings, acoustic, orchestra, drums), along with the aforementioned 24 channels of 24-bit audio both incoming AND outgoing over firewire. Do you realise how hard-drive intensive that all is?! And that I don't have any problems?!

 

But this is music production and is irrelevant to web designing, which is infinitely less demanding.

 

You will hear alot of misinformation, especially people making statements which under further interrogation they are totally unable to back up..... I'm sick to death of the underhand, sleekit lies being peddled by you mac haters.

Hypocrite!

 

Straw-man arguments.

Watch me back up statements that I have made, as I said I was going to do. Can you please do the same. You are not arguing with a child here. What straw man argument have I made? Do you even know what a straw man argument is? Also your abusive tone is not appreciated....

 

1)If you actually do do video editing and audio editing then you will know that there is a need to have your production software on one hard drive (physical, not partitioned) and your files on another and your temp files on another (non-physical if needs be -scratch disk), this is the same in image editing when working with large files. Why is this? (honestly I don't know, but seeing as you seem to know so much about it, could you inform me?)

 

2)Also, the amount of memory an application takes is not the only factor you have to consider. You also have to think about the NUMBER of processes running. If you have 1000 applications open that use 0.5MB,

is that the same as having one 500MB application open in terms of what effect it will have on the performance of your machine? Some virus scanners have multiple processes running at once, each one has an effect on performance. ( I am not making any claim about any specific virus scanner, as I don't know enough about every one. I do know that the ones I have experienced use of in the past have had more than one)

 

3)Your use of the word unmeasurable is laughable, as you use it to refer to time.

 

4)

I do intensive music production and also a bit of video-editing. 24 channels of 24-bit 44.1KHz audio with 1.5ms latency. - That's the CPU processing effects on 24 channels of high fidelity sound in realtime! AND THAT'S ALL TRANSMITTED OVER FIREWIRE TOO! - It's only when I push the latency down below 10ms that I have to disable the anti-virus to enable me to hit the lowest figure of 1.5ms (incidently that's also the lowest figure available!)

 

The above paragraph, that YOU wrote 100% proves me correct. Sorry mate but you've shot yourself in the foot (in fact, more like the face). And I know that statement you made is true because I've experienced it myself. When using ableton, disabling the virus scanner decreases the latency noticeably. BUT THE VIRUS SCANNER ISN'T AFFECTING PERFORMANCE AT ALL!!!! Oh wait......

 

5)I have a PC sitting on my desk by the way, and the last time I checked it's not 1998.

 

6)

It doesn't scan the hard-drive every minute, only briefly when an app is launched or when you access something via the web and even so the time required is unmeasurable

 

Is this true or does is scan every file that you access? Does it depend on how you set it up?

 

7)The points I made as regards having a virus scanner running was as part of a discussion on the advantages of PC vs MAC. It had nothing to do with virus scanners running while utilizing web design software, as you alluded to here

 

But this is music production and is irrelevant to web designing, which is infinitely less demanding.

 

That, my friend is the actual definition of a straw man argument. Also stop using the acronym FUD, just type the words.

I have switched to a Macbook from a PC because of the super fast Intel based systems with DDR3 Ram, this can all be got on a PC, sure - but I love the whole package - the look, the beautiful screen and gamma/contrast - the way in which you actually use the operating system is fantastic, it took a bit of getting used to.

 

Plus if you need to run windows applications simply use Bootcamp or Parallels Desktop so you can run windows programs in a Mac environment, I find it's really useful for Cross Browser testing your websites.

 

I don't actually design, but I have a few colleagues that do and they prefer it especially for print design as they say they get a much truer presentation of how it will actually look when printed.

Watch me back up statements that I have made, as I said I was going to do. Can you please do the same. You are not arguing with a child here. What straw man argument have I made? Do you even know what a straw man argument is? Also your abusive tone is not appreciated....

 

1)If you actually do do video editing and audio editing then you will know that there is a need to have your production software on one hard drive (physical, not partitioned) and your files on another and your temp files on another (non-physical if needs be -scratch disk), this is the same in image editing when working with large files. Why is this? (honestly I don't know, but seeing as you seem to know so much about it, could you inform me?)

Likewise, your condescending tone is equally unappreciated.

 

FYI, I have four physical hard-drives for that purpose. #1 is a dual-boot XP32 and Vista64 OS drive only, #2 is for sample data, #3 video, and #4 for additional program files (like the bloated Adobe stuff, to isolate them away from the OS drives for ease of maintenance/imaging). Each are sub-partitioned with other, non-conflicting, lesser used partitions at the rear of each drive (backups, documents, games, etc), keeping time-critical files directly toward the front of the disks. Larger drives also help this (they stay faster along the outer rim for further into the drive, in terms of data storage size). For this reason two of the drives are 500GB each, the others are 320GB and 250GB. I also have an additional caddy with a 160GB USB2 drive for project backups.

 

2)Also, the amount of memory an application takes is not the only factor you have to consider. You also have to think about the NUMBER of processes running. If you have 1000 applications open that use 0.5MB... blah blah blah

Ignored. No-one has 1000 apps and/or processes running. Another straw-man argument.

 

Some virus scanners have multiple processes running at once, each one has an effect on performance. ( I am not making any claim about any specific virus scanner, as I don't know enough about every one. I do know that the ones I have experienced use of in the past have had more than one)

On my 'puter Avast has two processes running, at 20mb and 11mb respectively (it's decreased since the last time I looked at task manager).

 

CPU usage is 0%.

 

3)Your use of the word unmeasurable is laughable, as you use it to refer to time.

 

?!

 

Time is measurable last time I looked, both physically and discernibly. Obviously anything that is physically executed such as an antivirus will use a few clock cycles when loading an app, but the overall time difference is discernibly immeasurable in use.

 

4)

I do intensive music production and also a bit of video-editing. 24 channels of 24-bit 44.1KHz audio with 1.5ms latency. - That's the CPU processing effects on 24 channels of high fidelity sound in realtime! AND THAT'S ALL TRANSMITTED OVER FIREWIRE TOO! - It's only when I push the latency down below 10ms that I have to disable the anti-virus to enable me to hit the lowest figure of 1.5ms (incidently that's also the lowest figure available!)

The above paragraph, that YOU wrote 100% proves me correct. Sorry mate but you've shot yourself in the foot (in fact, more like the face). And I know that statement you made is true because I've experienced it myself. When using ableton, disabling the virus scanner decreases the latency noticeably. BUT THE VIRUS SCANNER ISN'T AFFECTING PERFORMANCE AT ALL!!!! Oh wait......

That is the only occasion where deactivating the antivirus has brought any physically measurable benefit whatsoever, but when you're talking about a few milliseconds that you can't even perceive, and that is no less unusable, then even that becomes irrelevant.

 

But you said it yourself, you don't need an anti-virus on a studio PC, which removes the argument entirely. However I'm naughty and use my PC for EVERYTHING! Even high-spec online gaming (shock, horror!). Simply switching off the antivirus when doing super duper high performance studio work is a single click of the mouse away. The best of all worlds.

 

You make it seem like studio PCs are loaded with Norton 360 type programs that run all the time!

 

5)I have a PC sitting on my desk by the way, and the last time I checked it's not 1998.

 

Specs?

 

6)

It doesn't scan the hard-drive every minute, only briefly when an app is launched or when you access something via the web and even so the time required is unmeasurable

 

Is this true or does is scan every file that you access? Does it depend on how you set it up?

 

No, it works exactly as I outlined.

 

7)The points I made as regards having a virus scanner running was as part of a discussion on the advantages of PC vs MAC. It had nothing to do with virus scanners running while utilizing web design software, as you alluded to here

 

Why bring it up, then? You originally said:

 

It is a well known fact that having to install a program that is constantly running and takes up a large amount of memory (In the case of Norton 360 for example) will hamper the performance of your computer.

 

Not only does no-one need Norton (does anyone here actually use it?), you don't need any security if LAN/internet is disabled on a studio PC, you said it yourself. The Norton argument was of the straw-man type.

 

Do you run programs on your Mac that take large amounts of memory and run all the time, that you don't need? Cus I don't!

 

But this is music production and is irrelevant to web designing, which is infinitely less demanding.

 

That, my friend is the actual definition of a straw man argument.

 

Why is that irrelevant? We're on a web design forum talking about web design, therefore my deviously torturous practices for enjoyment are irrelevant. Anti-virus programs, especially by the likes of Norton, don't enter the world of web design, yet you made them so, along with fallacious consequences of using them.

 

Also stop using the acronym FUD, just type the words.

 

I have the freedom, within reason, to type whatever I want. Acronyms included.

 

For the record, FUD is fear, uncertainty and doubt. Classic straw-man tactics.

why can't we all just get along!? :-(

this is war joe, WAR. never surrender.

 

But seriously, there is massive consensus that pcs suck using vista, basically everyone agrees. but no pc user will accept osx is better..? tiger is better than xp and leopard is better than vista. realy weird really, spesh since the previews are asking if windows 7 will be better than osx.. why does it need to be better when its not? hummm so confused, i guess someone need to jump in and tell me its because pcs are budget and made from cheap plasic with ports that break and cheap components that overheat and break so il just hang out over here for now.

this is war joe, WAR. never surrender.

 

It's all taken with a firm dose of tongue-in-cheek-ness this end, but the various archaic FUD-based myths that are trotted out each time do occasionally need demistifying.

 

What it boils down to is that both Macs and PCs will do anything you want them to. Beyond that, in fact, and then some more. One isn't really any better than the other.

 

I'd say it's more a case of which software titles do you think you will get along with better, and then that will go a long way in deciding Mac or PC for you. But even this is becoming less and less of an issue these days. Then you have to think about price...

But seriously, there is massive consensus that pcs suck using vista, basically everyone agrees. but no pc user will accept osx is better..?

 

A massive consensus, despite no pc users accepting osx is better? How's that work, then?

I've ran Vista for months, it's amazing and I have a background in software development, operating system development etc, so I'm perfectly qualified to say that it's good.

 

As is OSX, but in a different way.

Mac vs. PC again?

@timo

 

I'm wearing my non confrontational hat here....

 

Why bring it up, then?

 

Because it was a response to those who said that there are no differences. I actually brought it up to illustrate a difference in system architecture (OS design). There are many other differences that are not virus scanner related.

 

You repeatedly say that me bringing up Norton was a straw man. If you go and look I only used it as an example, and further, that wasn't even the real point I was making at all. Your reply has been criticizing the first point in my post (of half a dozen points). Look at my start of that point.

 

PC's are FUNDAMENTALLY less secure than macintoshes because of the way UNIX handles user access.

 

You've already conceded that. No?

 

You have taken my original post in this virus scanner, system performance related direction. That was not my original intention.

I was defending the idea that there are advantaged to designing on a mac.

 

Having looked back at this thread I think I can identify my mistake. It was 'having to install', that clearly was not true, so I apologise for that error (where alot of your apparent rage might come from maybe? Just guessing.)

 

But what about all the other points in that post? Even since then I don't think I've said anything particularly controversial. The amount of times you have used FUD, I felt that you were saying that I was out to intentionally deceive others, which just isn't true.

 

Look, you put up a good side and I respect that.

 

Can you accept that alot of people who don't know what they are doing (and some that do) install programs like Norton or mcaffee etc - that, if incorrectly set up, in conjunction with not knowing how to set up disks etc, could lead to a decrease in performance, when working with something like video, or large image files (the kind of thing that web designers might encounter). I know this because I end up having to delete it from friends / families computers because they get conned into buying it in PC world (that's another rant for another day).

 

By retracting the 'having to' bit of my first point, I allow that people who have a virus scanner installed with a small footprint will notice no discernible difference in system performance. Like you, and many others.

 

But all mac owners will experience no discernible difference in system performance, because none of them have virus scanners. That was I guess I what I was trying to say, as part of a larger statement.

 

Peace.

 

@other people talking about Vista

 

I can't get over some of the terrible UI decisions they have made (or haven't) they are still there staring me in the face from the windows 98 days).

 

I urge you to read this - don't be put off by the title just check it out.

 

http://moishelettvin.blogspot.com/2006/11/...n-crapfest.html

there's a lesson for all about design here, it has nothing to do with mac v pc, but about common sense and bureaucracy.

 

This article is a little more scathing about the actual feature the above post describes.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/11/21.html

 

I really do believe the fundamental difference between mac and pc can be ascertained just by looking at that start menu..... Attention to detail.

Just an interjection...

 

GO LINUX! Just to annoy everyone

The original question was What advantages are there for designing on a mac compared to a pc? The answer is none, it is all down to the users personal preference. Which one the user feels most comfortable using so that the user can get the design job done as quickly, professionally and easily as possible.

 

People can run off stats and research done by people who were commissioned to prove the point that you are trying to prove. That is the thing about research and stats, I could give someone money to prove that a pc is better and someone money to prove that a mac is better and both will succeed as that is what they were paid to do. Macs have problems, PCs have problems, its just the way they are. But the truth is neither is better then the other when it comes to designing things on them, it is just personal preference.

 

 

 

Now Calum can come back on here and tell me that I just don't understand the greatness of macs, how much better they are. Well I have been using macs for designing longer then I have a pc, I was tough on a mac I owed a mac and then later had to move on to a pc and found it to be better for me. I am not saying because of this that everyone should use a PC but I guess it just makes me less bias due to the fact that I realise that it is a personal choice. I have never claimed to hate macs I just claim that shock of all shocks they do not make some one a better designer.

 

Also in regards to some of the points that you made.

 

 

1)Mac's and PC's are not 'basically the same'....

 

I never said they were the same in terms of hardware, I said they were the same for designing on now-a-days. There is a difference in what I said and what you thought I said. Years a go macs were better for designers but today they are not.

 

 

 

1)PC's are FUNDAMENTALLY less secure than macintoshes because of the way UNIX handles user access. Further, because there are more PC's that Macs there are more viruses / spyware etc. I am NOT saying that macs are invulnerable to Viruses. Put it this way I do not know one person that uses a virus scanner on their mac computer. It is a well known fact that having to install a program that is constantly running and takes up a large amount of memory (In the case of Norton 360 for example) will hamper the performance of your computer.

 

Maybe you should start using a virus scanner:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7760344.stm

 

After all Apple advices you to use more than one of them....because of the fact they are not a secure OS.

 

You do know the reason why there are less viruses on a mac was because in the past it wasn't worth the virus makers time. Macs weren't popular as the majority of house holds that had internet access were windows users. But now that macs are becoming more popular more viruses are popping up for macs, so sorry.

 

 

2)The interface of OSX contains hundreds of small, subtle user benefits that I wouldn't expect PC users to understand or conceed to, but ask any mac users and they will know. The main one is Expose, windows 3D view is a poor rip-off and doesn't work nearly as well. On top of that spaces is a nice way of organizing your work environment. These features are great if you at all value productivity. Other features? System wide spell check, multitouch scrolling (you put two fingers on the touchpad and scroll left or right, great for webpages, but better for image editing). Time machine is the easiest and fastest way to backup, and that;s not because I'm technically illiterate, I've got better things to do than manually back up my machine. And now I don't have to.

 

your personal preference, nothing more, nothing less

 

 

3)It is NOT TRUE that you can get the same software for both machines. Textmate, Omnigraffle, Coda, Transmit, Silverback etc etc etc. All fantastic programs and not available for PC. Google them.

 

I never said that all software appears on pc and on mac. I said that there was a time when you could only use a mac due to software but now this is not true. PCs have good software that can be used as does a mac, again this is personal preference, nothing more, nothing less.

 

4)There ARE HARDWARE ADVANTAGES. Stop telling lies. What are they? Well the machine that you buy from apple has components inside it, the same components in fact that may appear inside a PC (gasp). BUT apple only deal with a small selection of suppliers, and because they have a very small range of machines, they optimize and streamline the drivers for OSX. I have never had a driver conflict or had to upgrade drivers for some specific component like I have had on PC. Because Apple have complete control over what goes into their machines, they have complete QUALITY control as well. Some people don't like the fact that they can't choose to put what ever they want into their machines. Personally I'm happy to let them choose for me.

 

I build my own PCs so I know that quality is inside it thank you very much...again you have shown your personal preference

 

@Dizi- "clinging on to reasoning that no longer is true" - This is exactly what you are all doing. I know you hate macs' but can you please address any of the points I have made both on this and the other thread from yesterday.

 

 

As I have said I don't hate macs, I own one, I used to design all the time on one...but now I use a PC. I will not force onto people that they should use a PC, I will always say that it is their choice, but to not be swayed by mac fan boys and girls that still think that macs are the only computer that a designer can use. It is not true at all, and people who use macs may think that it is, they may argue until they are blue in the face, but they cannot say that macs are the only way a designer can be a real designer.

 

My point about some people believing that it makes them a better designer is true, during my time at college, uni and on here I have seen it. There is something about a mac that makes some people (not all) think that they are great designers just because they own a mac. It has nothing to do with it.

 

 

Design is about the person not the software, not the os, not the computer. It is the persons imagination, creative flair and ability to jump out of the box and out of the sterotype for the type of design they are designing for. If a mac helps that person then great, if a pc helps that person then equally as great. But don't ever think or say that to be a designer you must use a mac, or to be the best you must use a mac, or the best interface is on a mac or the best thought out way of navigating through things is on a mac...these are all personal opinions, brought on by what you like, not by what others like but you and you alone. It is simply about what is best for the person who is using the computer, for you it is a mac, for me it is a pc.

 

 

So sorry if this annoys you, I will always tell people that macs are no better for a designer then windows or linux is...as it is not. you will never sway me from my opinion that it is a personal preference as to which is better. Much like you have a right to scream "I am a mac lover, I think macs are the best" I have a right to state my opinions that "It is up to the person choosing which one is better for them to us"

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I am not trying to start any argument with this. I just really don't understand why some people cannot accept that it is personal taste and preference and there is no right or wrong machine for a designer....not now anyway.