I'm looking to know people's personal way of how they managed to pick up coding, what did you do? I know you learn by working on code but what was the breakthrough point for you? Or was it all just easy? I've done the courses but find there's something i'm just lacking, like some kind of understanding of what things do, I was wondering if there was an easier way of figuring out. I think I look at code and just go over it not caring about what it does, then don't really understand the code fully so can't work on it. like when I see something I don't understand, i'd look it up on google but still wouldn't be able to understand what it does, usually there's some kind of description on MDN but I don't understand.

I'm sure you've asked this same question in many guises.  I'll answer again - there's no singular breakthrough or lightbulb moment, there are many but then those raise more questions and you realise you know even less.

What matters is that you know enough to add value and can use what you know to help learn additional things that might be required to solve a problem.  You seem to have this idea that you need to know everything and be able to solve every problem without any help.  That is not the reality for a web developer - or any kind of software engineer.  Even principal engineers seek help from time to time.

Juniors for the most part will be paring with people who have far more experience - this is the main reason why I say the real learning begins when you start your first job.  Upto that point you've only scratched the surface - and that's all that's expected of a junior dev.

The thing that's clearly holding your back is your mindset - and people who are interviewing you will pick up on that.  When I interview people I'm looking for people with a willingness to learn, are comfortable with the fact they don't know everything, and have a "can do attitude".  You'd be better working on your mindset rather than focusing on being good at writing code - that's only part of the job of a developer.

Edited April 9, 20206 yr by rbrtsmith

I'd say improving your knowledge when it comes to code is a series of small lightbulb moments and not one large one. Experienced programmers have just had more of these, but as you solve problems, fix bugs etc you'll start to build up a collection of your own. Over time you'll look at what you're able to do now and remember how you used to struggle doing the same thing. That's how progress is made, even if it seems like there's still a lot you don't know.

On 4/9/2020 at 9:10 AM, rbrtsmith said:

I'm sure you've asked this same question in many guises.  I'll answer again - there's no singular breakthrough or lightbulb moment, there are many but then those raise more questions and you realise you know even less.

What matters is that you know enough to add value and can use what you know to help learn additional things that might be required to solve a problem.  You seem to have this idea that you need to know everything and be able to solve every problem without any help.  That is not the reality for a web developer - or any kind of software engineer.  Even principal engineers seek help from time to time.

Juniors for the most part will be paring with people who have far more experience - this is the main reason why I say the real learning begins when you start your first job.  Upto that point you've only scratched the surface - and that's all that's expected of a junior dev.

The thing that's clearly holding your back is your mindset - and people who are interviewing you will pick up on that.  When I interview people I'm looking for people with a willingness to learn, are comfortable with the fact they don't know everything, and have a "can do attitude".  You'd be better working on your mindset rather than focusing on being good at writing code - that's only part of the job of a developer.

Ahh right, well that's what I wanted to know - I would find it a lot more comfortable when you can actually do the job. My mindset is because of inability to do, to even get started as a web developer you need multiple years of experience and the competition is too much - I generally don't like the path which suggests actually I don't enjoy web development, if it just clicked then yh it'd be great, but it don't. I'm probably just going to stick with electrical engineering cos deep down I think i'd rather do that anyway. I remember a few years ago when I was more into this people thought I was weird and yh, I just think it was pretty unhealthy for me - stuff like this triggers too much dopamine and you can't get to sleep at night cos of it.

Edited April 24, 20206 yr by NullDrone

On 4/9/2020 at 9:10 AM, rbrtsmith said:

The thing that's clearly holding your back is your mindset - and people who are interviewing you will pick up on that.  When I interview people I'm looking for people with a willingness to learn, are comfortable with the fact they don't know everything, and have a "can do attitude".  You'd be better working on your mindset rather than focusing on being good at writing code - that's only part of the job of a developer.

Someone brought up normally doesn't run into problems later in life, someone who hasn't does, this is what I notice now, it's a sad reality. And why people turn bad. I spoke to a support worker of mine, and I think it upset her that she know deep down why I can't move forward, she can see me struggle with stuff but probably doesn't want to tell me why things are the way they are. People wonder why I'm like this, and I struggle to understand why I run into so many problem, I just thinks there's a very fundamental reason behind it all. You grow up realizing actually the world isn't as great as you thought, really it's garbage sugarcoated. Shame it had to be this way, but I had no other option.

Really I have no doubt that I would of eventually had someone take me on years ago if I had been a normal person, like all the people i've known from school who i've seen move forward just because people like them, they were given opportunities, well not me. People wonder why there's bad people, society creates them. You wonder why things just don't work out, well they weren't meant to.

I just have contempt, like even with this no one will go like what I say which just prove what people are like.

Edited April 26, 20206 yr by NullDrone

That’s about as wrong as it gets. Your assumptions about upbringing determining your fate are incorrect.

It may be how it is for you but that doesn’t make it so for everyone.

4 hours ago, fisicx said:

That’s about as wrong as it gets. Your assumptions about upbringing determining your fate are incorrect.

It may be how it is for you but that doesn’t make it so for everyone.

It's easy for robert to say have a good attitude or a good state of mind, because at interview he would show good attitude, and why wouldn't he have a good attitude? He can move forward in life easily. For me not so much, I go to interview and they pick up you have underlying issues even if you present a good attitude and feel actually there's something not quite right with this guy, well he isn't one of us, so we won't employ him, instead we'll take that other candidate that went to good school, never had problems, always fit in just perfect, seems completely normal - because i'm just a badly behaved asshole right? At college a few years back I didn't even have to say anything and they outcasted me, they can tell I don't fit. Ppl think because you've had issues in the past that it was your fault, 99% of people out there just won't understand or care.

When I first left school I thought like that and genuinely did have a good attitude at first, better than anyone else, but it's slow decline because you slowly start to pick up that actually no, you don't fit. I'm one of the more intelligent ones that went in care and didn't really deserve it, but still it holds you down like an anchor, nobody cares or even sympathize cos they've had a ****ing easy ass life. I spoke to this psychiatrist I found on internet and he's making 6 figures saying like "my brother didn't complain about working to pay me through medical school", I can see why he couldn't sympathize, like what's his biggest problem anyway? He probably clashes with half the people that come to him because he's been very ****ing lucky, whereas i had the opposite.

I've returned back to my normal self in the last week, and yh I notice one person who would reply to my message on facebook now just pretends like he didn't see, I just pick this up at interview either people think your weird or you have underlying issues so your not a preference. I think the reality is most people who've been in care end up with ****ty futures, a bit like a how prison sentence affects someone, my support worker probably knew that I would run into problems, but they don't say you can't move forward to stop you from taking another route. Someone that's been raped or whatever ends up running into problems later on in life, but with someone that went in care, you find that nobody sympathize and actually so many people cause problems for you. It's like people want to hold you back.

It's a ****ing ugly reality and nobody sees it. I definitely think your upbringing affects how life plays out later on, like if you've been victimized you'll naturally be victimized later on, it's sad but I just think some people are somewhat screwed from the beginning. The same is true of wealth, if you start with more money it's a whole lot easier than not having any money. They like to say yh anyone can be rich, but actually you need a decent amount of money in the beginning to invest.

Edited April 27, 20206 yr by NullDrone

The competition in software really isn't that high, there is a greater demand for engineers than there is supply.  I've recruited people who had written their first line of code 6 months ago, they didn't have years of experience.  I've told you so many times now that a junior is not expected to be able to solve all the problems, even a senior engineer is not.  in a junior I am looking for the right attitude towards learning, collaborating, has some base level of knowledge that we can build upon not instant value.

I don't know where you get this idea that the competition is so tough, you're going to have a difficult time in electronics if you think software is competitive.  

By the way I didn't go to a good school.  I lived on a council estate, I barely scraped my GCSEs, I got an E in IT because people were so disruptive.  The school actually closed down a few years later because it was that bad.  My parents separated when I was very young and I lived with my mothers side who have remained poor to this day.
I spent about 8 years working at a McDonalds so my CV didn't look good at all in that regard.  In the years from where I turned 18 through to about 28 life didn't move forward for me, in fact it regressed, I got heavily in debt and felt lost.  Approaching 30 made me realise that I'm the only person that can fix things and I have to pull my finger out and work towards improving my situation.

I came across well in the interview because I was really excited about writing software and wanted to learn more and work with others.  That is all.  I didn't turn up there an expert in anything, but I demonstrated an aptitude and willingness to learn, and take on things that I might not accomplish without help.

As for wealth goes you should tell that to Alan Sugar who's family could barely afford an ice cream.  It's sure harder but don't use that as an excuse.  you just have to put in more effort but that doesn't make it impossible.  I'm no millionaire but had I had a privileged upbringing I don't think I'd be any better off.  Being poor in the beginning taught me a lot about money management and growing up on a council estate and going to a rough school forced me to learn how to stick up for myself and how to deal with unpleasant people.  All good life lessons.
I've gone from being about £20k in debt to having a net worth of about £150k, which is not mind blowing but I'm happy with that given it's about 6 years since I started I'm still playing catchup with some peers who started much earlier but having learnt to how earn a good income and how and where to invest it I think I'm in a good place to start building modest levels of wealth.  Would it have been easier had I started with £500k in the bank?  Sure.  But does that mean I could never be a millionaire?  Hell no.  Whether that happens or not is 100% down to me and me alone.  If I fail it's me that has failed, I cannot blame society or the government or anybody else.

You get you set of cards in life and it's upto you how you play them.  You get one shot and complaining that you have a bad hand will get you nowhere.  I know this sounds callous but it's what every successful person has done - focused relentlessly on what they can do to improve their situation instead of feeling sorry for themselves.

Edited April 27, 20206 yr by rbrtsmith

40 minutes ago, rbrtsmith said:

You get you set of cards in life and it's upto you how you play them.  You get one shot and complaining that you have a bad hand will get you nowhere.  I know this sounds callous but it's what every successful person has done - focused relentlessly on what they can do to improve their situation instead of feeling sorry for themselves.

Yh i'm going to be seeking professional help for this cos I know now it is actually a big problem of mine, you realize once you get a bit older. It's obvious on here that I tend to go around in circles thinking about all kinds of problems, I can see why. It would explain for a lot of what I went through a few years ago. I feel like i've reached that where I need to seek help.

Edited April 27, 20206 yr by NullDrone

By the way for anybody interested in wealth building this is a good blog, and this post in particular shows that it's possible for anybody who's earning at least a middle income https://jlcollinsnh.com/2012/05/16/stocks-part-vii-can-everyone-really-retire-a-millionaire/

2 minutes ago, NullDrone said:

Yh i'm going to be seeking professional help for this cos I know now it is actually a big problem of mine, you realize once you get a bit older. It's obvious on here that I tend to go around in circles thinking about all kinds of problems, I can see why. It would explain for a lot of what I went through a few years ago.

I think that would be a positive first step.

16 minutes ago, rbrtsmith said:

I think that would be a positive first step.

Cheers

19 hours ago, rbrtsmith said:

I think that would be a positive first step.

Why is it when I'm looking at coding problems the solution just doesn't come to me, i'm scrolling down looking at the code and i'm not sure how to solve it.

I'm working on this javascript slider and he says that you need to add 

jQuery('input').click(() => { ms_go_slide(this.slide) })

Then I go do it and it doesn't do any thing, this happens so much with computers, I go do it and it don't anything, and i'm thinking why aint it working!!!

By the way I post on stackoverflow and eventually you get banned because your posts are not Minimal, Complete, Reproducible - can you post code on here? Really i'd like to be able to solve it all on my own but usually I need some kind of hint or something to do it - I think that's how i've solved problems before, it's a challenge to me because i'm used to asking for a hint or something. I think it's better to learn to solve on your own, but if you really can't you ask for a hint. Usually it's something small that you need to fix.

I'm taking ssri medication atm and I'm thinking it's having some benefit in terms of enjoying things, this week I was suddenly able to study my calculus book and enjoy it, was a lot easier than before. And I feel my focus is more on things that I need to, naturally I start talking about the things that matter.

Edited April 28, 20206 yr by NullDrone

Have you spent time working on the fundamentals with JavaScript?  I'd just stop with jQuery right away because few professionals use it these days and it's more important to get a grasp of how the language actually works.  before jumping into frameworks and using third party libraries.  Try building something from scratch.

Have you actually taken any courses that cover these fundamentals?  I spent about 50% of my time doing courses as learning the theory is every bit as important as doing practical work.

Do you know the Chrome developer tools and how to long things to the console?  in your example looking at the code I can imagine a number of things can be going wrong

• jQuery might not be in scope e.g. it's undefined
• You are adding click event listeners to literally every input on the page including text inputs etc.  You should scope event listeners like add a js-prefixed className to that.  This should also be a <button /> element not an <input />
• in the function that you pass to the `click()` method you are calling `ms_go_slide()` function.  Is that in scope?  The naming convention for that isn't typical of JavaScript development, I imagine the code behind it is awful.
• you are passing `this.slide` to that function.  Do you know how `this` gets bound in JavaScript?  If not you need to learn the rules of `this` binding.  I this case you are using an arrow function so it's lexically scoped - e.g. it's value must be in the scope of your code block.  if it's `undefined` you'll get an error when you try to access the `slide` propery.
• assuming `this.slide` is not undefined what is the value of `slide`? is it what the library expects?
• You can assert a lot of the above bullets by looking at your code and sticking console.log() statements to log out values of variables that you are unsure of.

 

I strongly recommend you take a paid course in JavaScript and general development, frontend masters is about the best around.  Take these courses and you'll be in a much better place https://frontendmasters.com/learn/beginner/

These people who you think it comes easy to probably don't exist.  I'm certainly not one of them.  I probably spent 100's of hours doing and re-doing JavaScript courses before things started to really make sense.  The key is - don't expect to understand it all at once, do a course - you should know more than you did prior.  Do it again, the second time you'll know a bit more.  Repeat until you feel comfortable with all the key aspects.


By the way general web development is not as difficult as calculus so if you can understand that then there's no reason why you cannot learn this stuff.

Edited April 28, 20206 yr by rbrtsmith

33 minutes ago, rbrtsmith said:

Have you actually taken any courses that cover these fundamentals?  I spent about 50% of my time doing courses as learning the theory is every bit as important as doing practical work.

I've learnt from codeschool courses but don't want to go on any more courses until I know I can code. I'm working on problem solving at the moment, reading code, solving the problem.

When I see something I don't understand and google it, but then still struggle to understand what it does, I read the MDN, doesn't usually make sense.

By the way, you've managed to get to the point where you can study electrical engineering and that's not a trivial thing to do, you should be fine with web dev if you work on it.

Frontend Masters have a free bootcamp which might be helpful for you to get up and running - https://frontendmasters.com/bootcamp/. To be honest this more beneficial to you because you'll see how all of the aspects of frontend fit together and you'll be working on a project. There's no point spending time problem solving issues you don't have, you'll be stuck in an endless loop and come out having made no progress.

One thing I have always found useful is to work on a variation of a project you might get in a tutorial or course. For example, if they build a film app, I'll build the same for books. I find this forces you to have to think through the problem in your own way, while not going too far off what it is you're supposed to do.

18 hours ago, Jack said:

By the way, you've managed to get to the point where you can study electrical engineering and that's not a trivial thing to do, you should be fine with web dev if you work on it....

I've already done codeschool, not doing course again.

By the way ever since fisicx told me to problem solve i've found many things in my life easier, it's such a fundamental skill. Being able to work out problem without help is a hard thing to develop.

It takes me longer but usually in the end I manage to scrape through, my last course I was so close to ruining it but got through

18 hours ago, NullDrone said:

I've learnt from codeschool courses but don't want to go on any more courses until I know I can code. I'm working on problem solving at the moment, reading code, solving the problem.

When I see something I don't understand and google it, but then still struggle to understand what it does, I read the MDN, doesn't usually make sense.

What do you mean "Know I can code".

If you can read and use a keyboard then you have the ability to learn to code.  I think you are expecting too much too soon and that is making you think you can't do it.  you have to invest A LOT of time on fundamentals before you can really build things and understand the logic behind it.

Although I'm a bit bewildered why you are finding learning so hard given you have done some Electrical Engineering and calculus which as @Jack says are not trivial.  I can only put it down to your approach being wrong.

My point being I have worked with somebody who came from an artsy background, never did anything maths, science or computing related.  This person decided to do a 12 week intensive coding bootcamp, came out and managed to get a job as a junior engineer within a month of leaving.  This person is clearly intelligent but if you are less so - like myself then you can still get there.  It just takes longer.  You say you did some of the CodeSchool stuff but did you repeat them?  Some of the codeschool lessons I repeated about 10 times.

4 hours ago, rbrtsmith said:

My point being I have worked with somebody who came from an artsy background, never did anything maths, science or computing related.  This person decided to do a 12 week intensive coding bootcamp, came out and managed to get a job as a junior engineer within a month of leaving.  This person is clearly intelligent but if you are less so - like myself then you can still get there.  It just takes longer.  You say you did some of the CodeSchool stuff but did you repeat them?  Some of the codeschool lessons I repeated about 10 times.

Well I thought it just clicked then all of a sudden you become a really good coder, like there's a breaking point and once you've figured it, it all starts to become a whole lot easier.

I don't think you need to repeat the lessons, you should be able to look at the books for reference and go from there.

By the way i've read before that the coders that take longer to pick up code turn out to be the better ones.

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-I-understand-code-and-cant-code

So it makes sense why fisicx will not help me do it, from this i've kind of learnt not to depend on others for hints on how to do.

I think it's just because 1. I am struggling to understand what some parts do, for example i've been over map but can't remember exactly how it works so tend to just ignore parts of the code and 2. it makes the code confusing, 3. so don't know where to start, even though I do, I just find my brain stops working when I get confused. 4. Then when I do put a fix it don't work or sometimes doesn't work. Like with that line of code I added it the other day and it wasn't do anything then today, I go check and actually it does do something, so I've got it somewhat right. Clicking on the number 2 does operate the slider but not correctly. Usually i'm fed up by this point though.

2 minutes ago, NullDrone said:

Well I thought it just clicked then all of a sudden you become a really good coder, like there's a breaking point and once you've figured it, it all starts to become a whole lot easier.

The only aspects that will start to click will be the parts you've studied up on. You'll need to use everything regularly to get good at it, that's just the nature of learning.

Learning to code is going to be never ending, there will always be something new you want to look into. For example, a new trend that becomes important in the industry, something that has been on your todo list for a while, advances in technology, or even something to benefit your career. If you're not comfortable with the idea of that, then programming in a professional capacity probably isn't for you.

1 hour ago, Jack said:

The only aspects that will start to click will be the parts you've studied up on. You'll need to use everything regularly to get good at it, that's just the nature of learning.

Learning to code is going to be never ending, there will always be something new you want to look into. For example, a new trend that becomes important in the industry, something that has been on your todo list for a while, advances in technology, or even something to benefit your career. If you're not comfortable with the idea of that, then programming in a professional capacity probably isn't for you.

This could be just your way of learning, because I used to be like that, I would forget what something does, and think you need to always do it to keep it on your mind, but I think actually if you learn how to read references, you don't need to be so familiar with things. I want to be able to just look up a reference then be able to understand it, that is what the reference are for. For someone like me that has done multiple things, it's better to do it this way. At electrical college they learn by repetitively doing something and then it just sticks, but actually you could use youtube videos or books for reference, like inspection and testing they say you need experience but all the tests on there I've done before, just need to look at reference.

Well this is what fisicx told me anyway and he aint stupid. I have ADD so prefer to do it this way. Unless I was working on the job, i'd be able to do that.

"Not everyone is born with an innate ability to pick up on coding fast, and that's okay. Why do you want to code? If it is because you have a passion for it, not because of the money, then just keep working at it, and talk to other new coders. Coding is more than just pure logic, it's about being creative and analytical at the same time, learning how to solve problems and be patient. Perhaps the coding you are trying to learn just isin't being taught in the right way. You don't have to be really good from the start, sometimes you have to struggle, but when you finally succeed, it feels amazing. Hang in there, and just keep learning!"

Edited April 29, 20206 yr by NullDrone

Everyone needs to look things up. Being able to review documentation and sources like MDN is very important, but if that's how you want to learn to code entirely then I think that's a really bad approach. If you're going to listen to anyone it should be @rbrtsmith. He has already achieved what you're trying to do, works at a really good company, with the best team of devs in his area. I have learned tonnes from him, and you're making a mistake ignoring his advice over some random person on Quora.

11 hours ago, Jack said:

Everyone needs to look things up. Being able to review documentation and sources like MDN is very important, but if that's how you want to learn to code entirely then I think that's a really bad approach. If you're going to listen to anyone it should be @rbrtsmith. He has already achieved what you're trying to do, works at a really good company, with the best team of devs in his area. I have learned tonnes from him, and you're making a mistake ignoring his advice over some random person on Quora.

Think i'd rather be electrical engineer tbh, it's just not my style. I don't want to take it to his level before getting a job, Deep down I think i'd be happier achieving electrical engineering degree rather than landing job in web dev, I think this is why I went back to college. I can imagine i'd go so far in web dev then feel actually would of rather done electrical engineering degree. I think I have conflicts doing this. You can use these skills landing a high paying job in USA. Web dev and Electrical Engineering are pretty much equal over there.

By the way i've been taking antidepressants and I think I notice I can do the work easier, like I think I can actually work on it now.

Edited April 29, 20206 yr by NullDrone

On 4/29/2020 at 1:58 PM, NullDrone said:

Think i'd rather be electrical engineer tbh, it's just not my style. I don't want to take it to his level before getting a job, Deep down I think i'd be happier achieving electrical engineering degree rather than landing job in web dev, I think this is why I went back to college. I can imagine i'd go so far in web dev then feel actually would of rather done electrical engineering degree. I think I have conflicts doing this. You can use these skills landing a high paying job in USA. Web dev and Electrical Engineering are pretty much equal over there.

By the way i've been taking antidepressants and I think I notice I can do the work easier, like I think I can actually work on it now.

I'd have never in a million years attained the level I'm at if I hadn't worked alongside brilliant—much smarter people than myself for over half a decade.  You need to learn enough to land a junior job.  Honestly the barrier is not that high, I've already stated in this thread that I've worked with somebody who was hired after just a 12 week bootcamp.  They didn't know everything and they have a very long road ahead.  What they demonstrated was promise and enthusiasm.  That is really all people are looking for in a junior.  Somebody that can be molded and learn - in time become a valuable contributor, most won't expect a junior to be making significant contributions from the get go.

You keep saying you want to be an electrical engineer.  You do realise the bar is far higher to get into that?  I don't know a single electrical engineer who's got in via a 12 week bootcamp and no formal qualifications.

I should also add — why are you so against reading things twice?  As Jack says I've been there and done it and work with (and have worked with) lots of people who all say the same.  Unless you think you're the next Einstein then you're going to have to do repetition, you have said yourself concepts aren't clicking.  This is why.  you repeat, repeat, repeat until that concept has been grasped.

Reading documentation won't do much, you ideally want to do a course and follow mine + Jacks advice - he's also somebody who's done it in a location where dev jobs are hard to come by.  He's worked incredibly hard and kept focused on goals instead of procrastinating.  You must do the same if you want to do well as a web developer or an electrical engineer.

We have literally given you a blueprint to follow and it will get people a job as long as they have the right attitude and enthusiasm.  We know for a FACT it works.

Edited May 4, 20206 yr by rbrtsmith