I have a question that I'd appreciate your views on please (admin please move this if it's not in the correct place).

 

A client of mine agreed to a monthly support contract last August for a set monthly fee for 8 hours support per calendar month. In September they wanted a new website and asked us to use up whatever hours it took to do out of their support contract hours.

 

In December, they failed to pay that months payment. We went through a lot of hassle to finally receive that months payment, with significant reassurances that the following month would be paid on time. Of course this hasn't happened and despite chasing for payment for the past 5 days (it was due 8 days ago) and receiving several reassurances that a cheque has been posted first class 3 days ago, it still hasn't arrived.

 

When I phoned the client to ask what was going on, they said they wanted to terminate the contract as they want to use a new development agency. They were sent a quote for buying out the remainder of the contract (which is for the hours already used up developing the new site) which they have negotiated down to almost half. Despite sending them an online payment request for this amount, they insist on paying with pre-dated cheques for the next 2 months which we have refused.

 

The problem I face now is, the website we made for them is on their server. I have asked them to pay by Monday or I will apply to reclaim money via the small claims court. I was then sent a reply via text from the owner threatening me that if I did anything to damage his company I "will regret it".

 

This company is very affluent and has approximately 50 staff so I don't know why paying is such an issue.

 

Has anyone faced this type of problem before? What did you do? What was the outcome?

 

Any advice would be welcomed.

Edited February 21, 201511 yr by Aled Mann

Hi Aled,

If the amount is not much then just leave it as it is not worth the hassle and definitely not worth for you to be occupied with chasing on daily bases.

If the amount is big, say over £1000 then do not let this go. Take a screenshot of the text message, do not reply by text and reply only by email.

Do explain to him that you have full right to the whole design and parts of the website unless they pay up. If they ignore to pay then claim the money via small claims court.

Do explain to him that you are not out there to damage his personal or his company's reputation, and tell him that if he keeps threaten you then you will register his threat also with the police. And if he does then you must go to the police and register the threat.

 

But before letting it go so far do try to talk to him again and make him understand.

 

 

Good luck mate

Thanks Newman. Yes it is well over a thousand pounds unfortunately. Appreciate your help!

Hi Aled,

If the amount is not much then just leave it as it is not worth the hassle and definitely not worth for you to be occupied with chasing on daily bases.

If the amount is big, say over £1000 then do not let this go. Take a screenshot of the text message, do not reply by text and reply only by email.

Do explain to him that you have full right to the whole design and parts of the website unless they pay up. If they ignore to pay then claim the money via small claims court.

Do explain to him that you are not out there to damage his personal or his company's reputation, and tell him that if he keeps threaten you then you will register his threat also with the police. And if he does then you must go to the police and register the threat.

 

But before letting it go so far do try to talk to him again and make him understand.

 

 

Good luck mate

I have to disagree, no matter what the amount no business no matter how big or small should get away with taking advantage of another business.

 

There were a couple of mistakes you made, firstly that the contract terms did not seem to cover these circumstances if indeed there was a contract, and if there was new work asked you could have created a new contract to cover that work. The second thing is the deposit, you should still have milestones and an upfront fee.

 

Taking all that I would say it's a lesson learnt but don't let them get away with it, take the website offline or if it's under their control tell them to take it down because ownership have not been transferred until all payments are final.

I have to disagree, no matter what the amount no business no matter how big or small should get away with taking advantage of another business.

 

There were a couple of mistakes you made, firstly that the contract terms did not seem to cover these circumstances if indeed there was a contract, and if there was new work asked you could have created a new contract to cover that work. The second thing is the deposit, you should still have milestones and an upfront fee.

 

Taking all that I would say it's a lesson learnt but don't let them get away with it, take the website offline or if it's under their control tell them to take it down because ownership have not been transferred until all payments are final.

 

I would go with this and also make him aware that you are doing nothing at all to harm the reputation of his company, he is doing it all himself.

Thanks guys - a lesson well and truly learnt. My questions is, should I take the site down? I really don't know what to do.

 

The thing is, because the site is on their server, if I do put up a maintenance page they will simply block my access and put the site back up. Any ideas? :/

Put up a notice that says 'error loading website, if this is your website please contact (your number) as soon as possible

 

Then remove all files from their server, get a full backup and add the cost of you doing that to their bill.

 

Edit: Thinking about it, simply removing the images folder and the css, then put up the message should be enough

Thanks Fuzzy Logic. Appreciate the advice!

Put up a notice that says 'error loading website, if this is your website please contact (your number) as soon as possible

 

Then remove all files from their server, get a full backup and add the cost of you doing that to their bill.

 

Edit: Thinking about it, simply removing the images folder and the css, then put up the message should be enough

Don't do this unless you have a proper contract mentioning you own the design and the files.

 

If you do what Fuzzy is suggesting then it takes just a simple letter to put a online vandalism case on you, claim compensation from your for damaging his website and involving the police.

And don't forget that it is very easy traceable who does what on FTP servers/folders.

 

Fuzzy is suggesting to access HIS server, not yours but HIS server to cause damage. Think about it.

 

Good luck

Edited February 22, 201511 yr by newman

Don't do this unless you have a proper contract mentioning you own the design and the files.

If you do what Fuzzy is suggesting then it takes just a simple letter to put a online vandalism case on you, claim compensation from your for damaging his website and involving the police.

And don't forget that it is very easy traceable who does what on FTP servers/folders.

Good luck

Sorry but again I disagree, ownership was never transferred as that is true they are using your intellectual property, you are entitled to take it down since you already have lawful access (as they supplied you with pass details and have not revoked that access)

 

What was wrong however is newman's advice to go to the police, they will simply say it's a civil matter and you need to go to court.

 

https://www.gov.uk/ownership-of-copyright-works#creator-and-first-owner

 

As no payment has been made, whether there is a contract or not the 'first owner' owns all rights to the works

Mate, you must not access one's server to cause any kind of damage.

 

Please think about this properly before you take such actions.

 

I have a full time dedicated litigation solicitor for my company and please take my word when I say that Fuzzy's advice can even put you in JAIL if your client hires a simple solicitor to put a case against you.

 

Please think about it.

You are talking about damage to their property, he would simply be removing something that belongs to him, nwith legal access, a totally different legal framework

I've simply informed the client that they have until the end of Monday to pay 50% of what they owe as final settlement or I will take it to small claims court for the full amount. I will leave it at that and let them or the court decide. I think this is more than fair. Last thing I want, no matter how tempting it is, is them having any grounds to counter sue or counter claim.

You are talking about damage to their property, he would simply be removing something that belongs to him with legal access, a totally different legal framework

Unbelievable!

 

Have a good weekend guys.

 

 

.

I've simply informed the client that they have until the end of Monday to pay 50% of what they owe as final settlement or I will take it to small claims court for the full amount. I will leave it at that and let them or the court decide. I think this is more than fair. Last thing I want, no matter how tempting it is, is them having any grounds to counter sue or counter claim.

Aled, well done mate.

 

Good luck. I am sure you will get your money and you won't even get any legal issues.

 

Good weekend guys

Good luck with it, I have posted a link to the legal side of things above

 

Legal definition of criminal damage

 

A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.

 

You have lawful excuse, you would not be reckless, it belongs to you and not another.. Just sayin

In future put up all work onto your own staging server, once payment has been made then you can launch the site. It's also a good idea to take payments upfront as soon as the initial contract is signed, then take a payment when the design is done & approved, then further payment when the front-end is done. Final payment when the site launches.

 

Hosting on your own servers can be a very good thing firstly, you get SSH access, which often isn't the case with clients, SSH is a million times faster to use than FTP. Plus you'd get month payments for hosting, and if the client doesn't pay for work it's on your server, you have control!

In future put up all work onto your own staging server, once payment has been made then you can launch the site. It's also a good idea to take payments upfront as soon as the initial contract is signed, then take a payment when the design is done & approved, then further payment when the front-end is done. Final payment when the site launches.

 

Hosting on your own servers can be a very good thing firstly, you get SSH access, which often isn't the case with clients, SSH is a million times faster to use than FTP. Plus you'd get month payments for hosting, and if the client doesn't pay for work it's on your server, you have control!

 

Ill agree with this. Always use a server for testing/showing the client etc - when a client has paid only then transfer it.

 

With this situation I'm with Fuzzy - pull the files, slap up a holding page. They won't get anywhere for damages as the files etc are yours. We run a system, where the client has to sign our terms with the quote - say i understand blah blah on a esign.

 

Which clearly states "until full payment is received all work created belongs to Cherry Designs" ONLY when a customer has paid do they get the transfer letter and the files/artwork.

 

I agree, also with other points, take them to small claims - why should they take the biscuit, I have found in business, if you don't stand up to some people or there is way they can take the michael they will. We have just sent a customer to small claims, wasn't a lot of money, it's the principle. Don't forget about commercial late payment interest etc. Add that on, your allowed. (

Just a note on the issue raised by newman.

 

Be very careful when trying to 'reclaim' goods of any nature once they have been placed on property which is owned or construed as being owned by the client. Always take legal advice before doing anything like this as there are times when you can and times when you can't. In effect you cannot make up the contract terms 'on the fly', you have to abide by the terms that were in that contract at the time it was agreed.

 

Put in your terms that payment must be made after an agreed period, perhaps 30 days and if payment still hasn't been made after 60 days the site will be removed and replaced by the original site. At this point some here will think, 'But what if they change the passwords to the server?'. Also write in the terms that you expect server access until final payment is made and if the passwords are changed you must be supplied with them immediately. If they were then to take this course of action to deny you access it would prove intent to defraud by obtaining goods and/or services by deception possibly making it a criminal as well as civil matter.

 

Take a little time to think of all the ways a client may try to catch you out and add terms to try and counteract it. However always take advice to ensure the terms are legal in the jurisdiction in which you operate. Although the prospect of handing over cash to a parasitic, blood sucking leech of a lawyer may not enthrall us it is worth it in the long term as it could save a lot of grief further down the road.

 

If dealing with a limited company be even more careful as limited companies have certain protections within the law. You are not allowed to take any form of action which may prove detrimental to the day to day operation of the company. Taking down the site and replacing it with a holding page or simply nothing could be construed as doing this. As the business is clearly in financial trouble the owners may use it as an excuse to go insolvent and then try to blame it on your actions. There was a recent case where an error at Companies House here in Cardiff resulted in the wrong business being listed as bankrupt. The business closed and everybody lost their jobs. The owner has since been awarded £8,000,000 in compensation. I have heard that employees who suffered loss of employment and subsequent financial hardship also intend to now sue. It is rumoured the government may hand out substantial sums out of court. Do you fancy having that prospect looming up at you?

 

So think carefully before taking any form of drastic action and take sound legal advice. Though it may seem to be the just thing to do, justice and the law can be quite opposite things in practise.

Thanks guys, some great advice here. I think the best thing to do is to leave the site as it is and leave a court decide who should get what.

Thanks guys, some great advice here. I think the best thing to do is to leave the site as it is and leave a court decide who should get what.

 

All very good advice from everyone, however you have to make a decision we you are comfortable in making and two is right for your business.

 

Whatever that decision is good luck (y)

..................... and leave a court decide who should get what.

 

Before doing that perhaps contact the company and ask if there is a cash-flow problem. Assure them of your discretion over the issue. If there is perhaps you can settle the issue amicably by allowing payment by instalments or reduce the amount of any instalment agreement but extend it to a greater number of instalments.

 

If they are still intransigent reach for the leech.

 

Before doing that perhaps contact the company and ask if there is a cash-flow problem. Assure them of your discretion over the issue. If there is perhaps you can settle the issue amicably by allowing payment by instalments or reduce the amount of any instalment agreement but extend it to a greater number of instalments.

 

If they are still intransigent reach for the leech.

 

Agreed, try and do everything you can and prove it - you've offered payment plans, you've asked if theres a problem etc

Its always very frustrating to deal with the clients. I guess it would be good if everyone take some advance payment and before handling the full payment just make sure not to give all files to them.

Thing to remember is that you have to always cover new works with a contract and the website redevelopment work should have been done on your own development server, don't release your product to the client until they have paid for it.

 

But thats in hind sight.

1. Try and talk him down initially (record this converstaion, get a dictaphone) , send an email summarising the meeting and if it doesn't work only use email to communicate so that their is a print trail. Offering a payment plan is a good idea. Just remember to document everything.

2. Don't mess with their server, always take the moral high ground. If they are a larger company they can probably afford more expensive solicitors. When it comes to the law that is one of the biggest factors in determining who wins a case.

3. If they wont pay take the company to the small claims court. If they value their credit rating then they will have to come around.

4. Keep a copy of the text and tell the client that anymore threats and you will take the matter to the police. They are trying to bully their way out of it and you must always stand up to bullys.

 

All the admin in setting up a contract can be a pain but clients are business people and so understand the need for such things, if they are really against the idea then stay well away as they are not interested for a reason.

Thing to remember is that you have to always cover new works with a contract and the website redevelopment work should have been done on your own development server, don't release your product to the client until they have paid for it.

 

But thats in hind sight.

1. Try and talk him down initially (record this converstaion, get a dictaphone) , send an email summarising the meeting and if it doesn't work only use email to communicate so that their is a print trail. Offering a payment plan is a good idea. Just remember to document everything.

2. Don't mess with their server, always take the moral high ground. If they are a larger company they can probably afford more expensive solicitors. When it comes to the law that is one of the biggest factors in determining who wins a case.

3. If they wont pay take the company to the small claims court. If they value their credit rating then they will have to come around.

4. Keep a copy of the text and tell the client that anymore threats and you will take the matter to the police. They are trying to bully their way out of it and you must always stand up to bullys.

 

All the admin in setting up a contract can be a pain but clients are business people and so understand the need for such things, if they are really against the idea then stay well away as they are not interested for a reason.

 

 

Good advice here.

They paid the full amount in the end. They didn't really have a leg to stand on after the threat via text. The MCOL threat seemed to help too.

 

I hope this helps others out there to ensure contracts are written and signed before a project commences.

 

Cheers guys.

They paid the full amount in the end. They didn't really have a leg to stand on after the threat via text. The MCOL threat seemed to help too.

 

I hope this helps others out there to ensure contracts are written and signed before a project commences.

 

Cheers guys.

 

Very positive. Well done.

They paid the full amount in the end. They didn't really have a leg to stand on after the threat via text. The MCOL threat seemed to help too.

 

I hope this helps others out there to ensure contracts are written and signed before a project commences.

 

Cheers guys.

Well done Aled. Great news.

I am happy you got your money without vandalizing client's server or pulling files and slap up a holding page as some suggested.

 

Great.

Edited March 26, 201511 yr by newman