Wow, what a great job. £3 per month

 

 

Of particular hilarity - "As part of this role the incumbent will be expected to perform unit testing & use tools for continuous.."

 

 

And for people who think the budgets in the LOOKING TO HIRE section of this forum are unrealistic, you aint seen nothin

 

£40 - £100 and this job is allowed to be posted

Edited September 4, 201114 yr by oakleaves

I think all the freelance sites are same when it comes to cost..

In all honesty People per hour is the better of the job sites and I've had some great work from there. They're more open to the reporting of ridiculous jobs and have a 'is this budget realistic?' link which i have filled out on numerous occasions many of which have ended with the client realising the budget was low and upping it to a more sensible level. If they don't i have seen many jobs cancelled by PPH.

 

A week ago the people at PPH phoned me to thank me for using the budget feedback link effectively and asked if their were any ways in which the service could be improved and they detailed plans they have for such improvements so all in all i have a great impression of PPH and they're pretty much the only freelance site i'll bother with now due to their great customer care and protection offered as well as the quality of 'most' jobs available on there.

In all honesty People per hour is the better of the job sites and I've had some great work from there. They're more open to the reporting of ridiculous jobs and have a 'is this budget realistic?' link which i have filled out on numerous occasions many of which have ended with the client realising the budget was low and upping it to a more sensible level. If they don't i have seen many jobs cancelled by PPH.

 

A week ago the people at PPH phoned me to thank me for using the budget feedback link effectively and asked if their were any ways in which the service could be improved and they detailed plans they have for such improvements so all in all i have a great impression of PPH and they're pretty much the only freelance site i'll bother with now due to their great customer care and protection offered as well as the quality of 'most' jobs available on there.

 

Hi Mike, to be fair PPH is the only site like this I use, I have met a couple of good clients from it. PPH is far better than Elance in my experience (or the other sites with the different business model like 99designs where most people end up having to work for free). Did get stung once BIG TIME on PPH last year but won't go into that. The staff were very helpful though.

 

I think I had my grumpy head on yesterday, just get a bit annoyed at some of the job requests. You can usually sift them out... eg profiles like 22 jobs posted, 0 jobs awarded, 3 jobs cancelled - you get a feel of who are good people to work for.

PPH I've had some good experiences in the past but last two months nothing but problems!! One guy hired me for a job only to put in the next day I was not qualified enough to do it. He offered to pay me my hourly fee and because my £P.H was more than the job quoted he kicked off and tried to cancel without paying me. Ended up going through the mediation and a month later I got half the project fee (not great but at least something) if one thing that project board protected me but I was bidding on 30-50 jobs per month on it. Id get 20 credits refunded due to cancelations and the rest would either not award the job after 30-50+ bids and id win maybe 1 or 2 if I was lucky that didnt turn out to be a night mare.

 

Now I use it to pitch on anything over £5,000 anything less and its not worth it, even more so when you get indian firms offering to do it for £50 when the budget is £450 (i know as I've posted jobs on there also!)

The interesting thing from my point of view is most people who hire Indian developers to save money usually complain afterwards of the bad work / service.

 

I have had a couple of people approach me in the past wanting me to correct poor work.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have a contact in India who is a PHP expert and he has saved my life on one project. He would be the first to admit his designs skills are lacking though.

 

As for the rest..

 

 

It strikes me what we need is a site like PPH aimed solely at developers and clients from the UK. Overseas providers would not be allowed. Not sure on the ethical side whether this would be possible.

 

EDIT - just spotted a flaw in my own idea. What would stop someone from say, India, registering on the site and pretending to be based in the UK?

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by oakleaves

ID come in with anyone who wanted to set up a UK job only board although they all start like that but soon go off the pan.. PPH being one of them, freelancers.net another (although people want the moon for 50p on there)

ID come in with anyone who wanted to set up a UK job only board although they all start like that but soon go off the pan..

 

 

Maybe the market isn't big enough? Or maybe they get greedy and ditch their original ideals for a bigger pie.

 

Have a good think about it. Maybe there is a gap in the market? If anyone else has any thoughts it would be interesting to hear. Gotta log off now and get some work done. This site is going to bankrupt me!! Will be back tonight.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by oakleaves

Maybe the market isn't big enough? Or maybe they get greedy and ditch their original ideals for a bigger pie

 

I think it would be better if trade only could post up looking for other trade members to help, not the kind "i got a job and need a developer but not actually got the client yet" but say you written the code and then need the front end done you post in the "looking for designer" section and so on.

 

So the way I see it you have

 

Designers

Developers

App Dev

Printers

 

And you post a job in the relevant section you need help with to finish. Something like that could work I think...

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by pandadoodle

Had to log back in. I'm definitely addicted.

 

Ah, so a site where designers and developers could come together? Interesting..

 

EDIT - whoa this post has promoted me to Advanced Member! Definitely worth the login and not getting work done. This site assumes that the more people have to say, the more advanced they are. Think there is a flaw there somewhere!

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by oakleaves

Yeah so your bidding on something you know is a project in development which has a chance of being rewarded, keep all the escrow system etc in place

I think the market is perfect for it, if you do it differently.

 

Avoid the system eLance/PPH/etc all use, the Escrow system. Instead set it up purely as a platform for communication and monetize with affiliates, or ads. You could take a cut of every job or a monthly membership fee but that could get messy. Although if it's ran by a collective of designers there doesn't really have to be any monetizing. Keep it professional, keep it tight, keep it respectful. Throw in a bit of article writing about what is expected, ethics, pricing, reasoning etc and I think you are on to a winner.

 

For Professionals by Professionals. Nice little badge to stick on our sites, show support for a certain standard of operating.

 

Also it would be the perfect place for that spammers **** list we were talking about a couple of weeks ago. The more I type the more I'm well into this idea.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by Glowbridge

Months ago i posted this in a status update. The need for a professionals only freelance connection site for our industry. Did anyone care then? Noooo... ba***** the lot of ya!

 

P.S. I would be very much interested in something like this.

Months ago i posted this in a status update. The need for a professionals only freelance connection site for our industry. Did anyone care then? Noooo... ba***** the lot of ya!

 

P.S. I would be very much interested in something like this.

 

You are just too forward thinking for us mere mortals. You scare us, we shun you. SHUUUUUN.

 

EDIT: Ding. Advanced Member. This thread is so full of progress.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by Glowbridge

I think the market is perfect for it, if you do it differently.

 

Avoid the system eLance/PPH/etc all use, the Escrow system. Instead set it up purely as a platform for communication and monetize with affiliates, or ads. You could take a cut of every job or a monthly membership fee but that could get messy. Although if it's ran by a collective of designers there doesn't really have to be any monetizing. Keep it professional, keep it tight, keep it respectful. Throw in a bit of article writing about what is expected, ethics, pricing, reasoning etc and I think you are on to a winner.

 

For Professionals by Professionals. Nice little badge to stick on our sites, show support for a certain standard of operating.

 

Also it would be the perfect place for that spammers **** list we were talking about a couple of weeks ago. The more I type the more I'm well into this idea.

 

Yes I would really love to be involved with something like this, but it really needs to be done right and managed well. If it's a free project how could we devote the time needed to bring this to life?

lets all remember this is my idea and id have first refusal of any design jobs posted

 

on a serious note if a bunch of people wanted to run something not for profit to see it takes off im happy to discuss it in further

lets all remember this is my idea and id have first refusal of any design jobs posted

oh dear, a possible collaboration falls at the first hurdle!

It should be called CI5.

D2D2D

 

Design 2 Developer 2 Designer

 

But less stupid

oh dear, a possible collaboration falls at the first hurdle!

 

Are we not letting public in? I think we should. Just be really strict about it, have a 'veto' button or something where if someone posts wanting the next eBay for 50p the designers/developers click 'Veto' and if enough do it, it vanishes and the submitter gets an email explaining they are a chump (In the nicest possible way)

 

lol!

Seriously though..

 

If it's a free project how could we devote the time needed to bring this to life?

Re: Vito

 

You would need mods for that because your idea of pricing a site is no the same as mine and visa versa and then before you know it we have ended up trying to put a fixed price on work across the board which is never a good thing.

 

Re: Time

 

You just add a bit where and when you can, if you had 2-3 developers and 2-3 designers work it all out at the start each could take a section and go from there. Alternatively 1 or 2 people could work on it as and when.

 

It could just simply start as a well designed forum for example.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by pandadoodle

What if the veto's required reasoning, they were limited and they were semi-public (Shown to other designers/developers?)

 

I just think that this idea was born out of frustration of low/no standards, so the best cure is to have the community decide what the standards are? I dunno.

Ok, I'll start the ball rolling.

 

I can dedicate up to 10 hours per week for now. I can provide the hosting if necessary and I will buy the domain, or maybe we could nominate someone on this thread.

 

If that's the case I nominate Mike since he SAYS (ahem) he had this idea first, and I'm sure he is true. Plus he always comes across as a fair kinda chap and a good mediator.

 

If we are serious about this we need some private collaboration away from this thread obviously..

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by oakleaves

What if the veto's required reasoning, they were limited and they were semi-public (Shown to other designers/developers?)

 

I just think that this idea was born out of frustration of low/no standards, so the best cure is to have the community decide what the standards are? I dunno.

 

I've been toying with it for a while (looking around) I found a place where developers can work on code together etc but nothing solid for designers and developers and visa versa, about 90% of my work now comes from developers who need a designer. I was thinking more of a business hub where other designers and developers need one of the following :

 

1. Additional services to complete a project

 

2. A business colab to bid on and submit tenders for projects 50,000+ where they do not have the entire skill to win the pitch

 

So you end up working with like minded people who are prepared to pay for a standard they are happy with for the required project at that time.

 

Having a UK only job board where you vito work and so on would turn out too much like a mission to educate jo client to the correct price when in todays market there is not much going on, in actual fact as web industry experts we should be looking to increase the work flow and take control of current conditions to work in our favour to the point of working on 25% down and the remainder paid over 10 months which brings in a fixed income and allows tax breaks and ease of cash flows for business that would not have the money nor resources to pay now. But thats just me.

 

I'm happy with either idea I guess, but id prefer working on a job board where professionals can hire other professionals and get money and credit they deserve eliminating the problem of pitching for work on PPH and the millions of others out there.

If its FREE to start any money paid out for X and Y should provided into pot by a group of people with a mass CC email to that effect eliminating any argument down the line when it comes to ownership or possible buy out (way off but it could happen) after all if Jim bought the domain and hosting then from a legal stand point he owns the name without the name there is no sale. Etc

 

(Jim is a name I just came up with in no way am I intending to tarnish any Jim here!)

I'll be honest and say this :

 

I'm not the easiest of people to get on with (from previous threads on here!!!) its just when money is involved after being stung for 100k you learn to cover your back and others, so no problems if I aint helping out but id like to be updated on the progress

 

(Jim is a name I just came up with in no way am I intending to tarnish any Jim here!)

 

ha ha

 

This is the only downside to collaborations, they can get a little messy. To be fair I've not met any of you on here personally (although I am sure you are all great chaps) and vice versa.

 

Also, I think if we are investing our time and energies into this we would need to get at least some kind of monetary reward down the line? Even Ben who started this forum has affiliate adverts etc, it's not all done for good will is it? (No offence Ben!)

I'll be honest and say this :

 

I'm not the easiest of people to get on with (from previous threads on here!!!) its just when money is involved after being stung for 100k you learn to cover your back and others, so no problems if I aint helping out but id like to be updated on the progress

 

ok, no worries..

Is there any reason we can't do both sides at the same time?

 

If we have the standard fair signup that splits the userbase into Pro's / Regular Joe's then we could just have the same system turned internal between the Pro's. Give Pro's the choice to be visible to both sides or just one, if you only want to do Pro to Pro then you can shut off the whole other end of the site. Let them hide certain aspects of their profile from Joe and most importantly keep the streams separate. I hate these sites where they just add a little 'tag' or banner onto a listing to signify something special, let's just actually have a section you can see public listings and a section you see pro's listings.

 

Reason being is I worry that there wouldn't be enough Pro to Pro work to just concentrate solely on that. A constant stream of Joe Public adding work to the pool will surely in turn increase the Pro to Pro?

 

On the ownership thing. Tough. Anyone involved should at least get periodic file dumps so if the person in charge of the hosting vanishes we don't lose everything. Unlikely but these things should be covered.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by Glowbridge

Interesting stuff

 

Would designers really get together with developers and vice-versa, or would a lot of them think it is a conflict of interests and let them sink?

 

I'm still 'in' for now. Interested to see where this goes.

Just to say i'm still 'in'. Just super busy here today but i am still up for something.

 

Regarding a 'veto' system. It's kind of what PPH have going with their 'is this budget reasonable?' link, however a lot more extreme. I guess you'd have to really think on which side of the fence you'd be sitting. It's the old..

 

you can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time

thing.

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by MikeChipshop

Would designers really get together with developers and vice-versa, or would a lot of them think it is a conflict of interests and let them sink?

 

I'm still 'in' for now. Interested to see where this goes.

 

If developers didnt work with designers id be out of business

 

Re : ROI

 

Yes I think later down the line having a subscription that allows access to "extras" or removes adds etc would be the way to go I think. But that comes with a host of legal paper work to make sure everyone knows the score and then it moves to a whole new level. The best way at that stage would be to appoint an accountant regardless if its £30 p.a or £30,000,000 everyone can get access to the books then without worries with fiddling etc and then clauses into everyones contract that X period of non communication etc removes you from the partnership and so on and so on...

Would designers really get together with developers and vice-versa, or would a lot of them think it is a conflict of interests and let them sink?

 

I'm still 'in' for now. Interested to see where this goes.

 

Well the issue I see with most of these job board sites is lack of community. There is very little interaction or open discussion about the process, the costs, the thoughts etc on these sites and it makes all the Pro's become 'dog eat dog' types. Aggressive undercutting, bidding for stuff they can't do etc. I don't actually think that is what most of these designers are really like, I just think the site closes them off from each other, hides information and turns it all into an aggressive competition.

 

For me the key to this being successful and useful would be a series of features that do it a little differently and kind of enforce a more open and more honest community. The more I think about the more the dual sided site appeals to me. It kind of moderates the aggressiveness.

 

Aren't people going to be less likely to aggressively undercut other Pro's, driving prices down for everyone, if they know that on the flip side of the site they might need that person for Design work, or they might be needed by them for Development.

 

Also, what about showing bids publicly but removed from their owners? The Pro's are never tied to bids or amounts, but we can display some kind of grid or graph of where all the bids for that job are at. After a certain amount of bids of course, to keep things fair. So someone posts an eCommerce job and after 10 bids there is a box that shows 8 are scattered around the £2,500 area.. one is a bit higher and one is a bit lower. Giving everyone an idea of roughly where the playing field is. If they think they are better and can charge more, they can.

 

I think it's a great idea. I think over the last few years there has been a surge in designers and developers opening up, sharing work, talking more about the job. Things like Dribbble are examples of that.

I'm not very busy today so I can type for everyone!

The problem with the average price thing is that unless your a start up id charge more than 2.5k for an ecommerce site so chances are my bids would be over looked despite the quality and what I'm actually pitching is more bang for the dollar then the 2.5k guys. I have no problem with people seeing what I bid on a project but peoples fee's changes from area to area.

 

For example If I moved my office to another location I would have to pay business rates so my prices would go up to reflect that, If I moved town my fees may go up and down based on the costs in that area and what people are prepared to pay. A great example of this is that I can buy timber in Cardiff for £5 but I could go to Aberdare and buy the same timber but for almost half the costs (but then I got travel time etc on top)

 

When you get into the business yes there is the argument of cost vs quality but there are so many other factors on top of that. As soon as you try to say it should cost X for this and Y for that things get messy. I can buy one of them big 1.5lts pepsi max bottles for 65p in tesco at the moment but next month they will got upto £1.35 why should I pay more then?

 

At least thats my opinion anyway.

 

I dont know a single line of php or asp (well i can write a contact form thats it) but I still pitch for work above my skill level and then employ someone with that skill to complete the project for me, thats what I propose we do. I have 4 solid developers on my books at the moment all of them are busy, where does that leave me if i get more work?

Edited September 5, 201114 yr by pandadoodle

I feel that the Freelancer sites are making the most of a hard situation.

 

A few things we need are better location control, higher levels of moderation and a greater level of customer/client input. Once a member feels they have more input in to a site then the more they will strive to keep the site fluctuating and aggressively self moderate.

That's a problem inherent to the job, no matter the platform though. I'm not sure we could ever over come that.

 

I think a job board/community that strives for honesty/good work/good intentions/fair pay/etc could certainly drive average prices up (Or atleast be better at attracting users who are serious about paying good money for a good service) and I also think limiting it to UK only will minimise the vast gulfs in quotes you see elsewhere but if you happen to live in London or something and need to charge higher rates because of it that's a problem that will follow you to any job board or potential client you come across surely?

 

'Course those people are disadvantaged when competing with those from elsewhere but not as disadvantages as they would be on a global job board.