Hey Everyone!,

 

This is my first post at the forum but I'm looking forward to getting involved and meeting lots of other UK designers.

 

Some brief background:

 

I'm a recent architecture graduate from The University of Manchester. While I was completing my architecture degree, my interest in web and graphic design overtook my passion for architecture. I completed a few small projects for local business (for very small fees), including wordpress sites, an ecommerce site for a local florist amongst other small print and web jobs.

 

I decided when I graduated to focus on freelance web design.

 

I've finally landed a client who deals with designers all the time and appreciates high quality work. I think the client will bring lots of future work as he employs freelance designers on a monthly basis. He asked for a rebrand of his business. I've looked around and chosen an hourly rate of £25.

 

It'd be great if a few of you who are more experienced in the field could have a look at my invoice and let me know if I'm being fair hear. Complete the poll if you don't mind. Also any feedback on my invoice design would be fab too.

 

Thanks guys

IND-001-001-REV1-1 copy.pdf

Got a portfolio at all? I like that the invoice is even designed nicely! Is it done just in photoshop?

 

Adam.

Got a portfolio at all? I like that the invoice is even designed nicely! Is it done just in photoshop?

 

Adam.

 

 

Hey Adam,

 

I've not got a portfolio up and running yet. In the process of building a site right now, but client work has got in the way!

 

Thanks for the compliment on the invoice, it's actually designed in InDesign CS5 using tables and a 12pt baseline grid. The typefaces are Bryant Pro and Archer.

 

Matt

Thanks for that, really does look nice, i also look forward to checking out your portfolio. I myself as a part time developer i charge £12 as its extra cash as im a student, but since its your living money so to speak id say £15-£25 is a very reasonable amount. Got any example of your work? Love seeming others work for inspiration!

Edited July 3, 201115 yr by Adamoverload

Thanks for that, really does look nice, i also look forward to checking out your portfolio. I myself as a part time developer i charge £12 as its extra cash as im a student, but since its your living money so to speak id say £15-£25 is a very reasonable amount. Got any example of your work? Love seeming others work for inspiration!

 

Cheers! £12 sounds quite low, you have a good looking site there, you shouldn't under sell yourself. It's right what you say though, that when you finish uni, you have to start thinking about paying the rent and stuff!

 

As soon as I put a rudimentary folio together, I'll PM you the link

 

Matt

I don't really understand why you are asking if its 'fair', has the hourly rate not been agreed on? It should have been agreed before the project started and signed into the contract.

 

Invoice has no payment details, address, terms, etc.

 

Do you want me to upload one of my invoices to look at?

Even i would appreciate that Jock.

Even i would appreciate that Jock.

 

Spacing is a bit funny because I had to open the generated PDF in GIMP to fuzz out some bits. When its printed out properly the clients address should appear through an envelope window.

Your price is correct if your customer is agree on that.

I don't really understand why you are asking if its 'fair', has the hourly rate not been agreed on? It should have been agreed before the project started and signed into the contract.

 

Invoice has no payment details, address, terms, etc.

 

Do you want me to upload one of my invoices to look at?

 

Hi Jock thanks for the reply. Sorry for the confusion, my mistake. The document is more of a quote rather than an invoice. We've just had an initial consultation/chat. The contract along with terms and payment details will be forthcoming.

 

I was just looking for feedback on the time, hourly rate and total cost I had quoted for the job based on the work involved. I'm new to all this you see.

 

Thanks again, Matt

To me it seems like the main issue is time, not hourly rate.

£25 hourly rate is at the bottom end of the scale, no problems there.

 

£600 for logo design seems maybe a bit high. Don't know what the graphics guys off here would have to say about that? For the right logo, it's probably worth it, but it was my understanding that £300 - £400 would maybe more in the ball park for a good polished logo.

 

I think the question you have to ask yourself is - are the number of hours you're charging for accurate? If you think you're a bit slow at the moment then either charge less per hour or do more hours than you quoted for.

To me it seems like the main issue is time, not hourly rate.

£25 hourly rate is at the bottom end of the scale, no problems there.

 

£600 for logo design seems maybe a bit high. Don't know what the graphics guys off here would have to say about that? For the right logo, it's probably worth it, but it was my understanding that £300 - £400 would maybe more in the ball park for a good polished logo.

 

I think the question you have to ask yourself is - are the number of hours you're charging for accurate? If you think you're a bit slow at the moment then either charge less per hour or do more hours than you quoted for.

 

Hey Gibson,

 

As you say £25 is at the bottom of the scale. As I told the client, I could technically design him a logo in a few hours but he might end up changing it next year. I want to provide something timeless that he will/can use forever. I think 3 days is reasonable for this with research and revision.

 

Smashing magazine think 4-15 days Vital Tips For Effective Logo Design

 

Matt

Ah ok, in that case £25 per hour is a reasonable rate for a fairly decent designer. Although if I was approached by someone starting out, even if their designs were really great I'd still expect their hourly rate to be below 'market rate'. What I'm trying to get at is a more experienced designer might charge £40 an hour but only take 1 hour to do something whereas you might only charge £25 an hour but take 3 hours to complete it.

 

Anyway, process wise... you send the invoice once the client has signed off the project (unless its a deposit/down-payment). What you want to do right now is send a design proposal, in which you break down each element the client has asked for and say how/what you're going to do to achieve it and how many hours it will take and what it will cost the client.

 

This will get batted back and forth between you and the client for a while until everything is agreed on, then you need to get them to sign a contract. The more solid your proposal is, the easier it is to complete the project. It might take like 3 days of unpaid typing and emailing but it might save you 2 weeks of design time. Don't open photoshop until they have signed the contract.

Yes, that makes good sense Jock. And the relative 'slowness' of my work is the thinking behind my rate. The client has accepted the quote this afternoon so I guess I just got lucky! We've chatted in depth about the project and he's accepted my proposal. Contract is the next stage now and I'll await the 50% deposit.

 

I was in the process of creating templates for my design proposals, invoices etc and this job came along but in future I will make sure I produce better documentation beforehand.

 

It'd be great if anyone is willing to share a sample of a contract they have used, with private info scrubbed of course.

All interesting stuff! Something i haven't even considered, but when i finish my course next year it is something i will definately need to be looking at!

 

Thanks for posting!

 

Alan

If its the price its the price however my thoughts are...

 

Logo Design £600 ok thats fine

 

Brand Identity!? You charged him £400 for something that should have been done in the above stage ^

 

Other prices ok then we get to the business card

 

£400 2 days!???? I don't get that sorry when you already have the logo above and fonts etc chosen out in the research stage. I think its a bit of a p*** take to spend 2 days playing around with different layouts once you have the core element.

 

Id also ditch the hourly rate on this kind of project in the future unless your standing head and shoulders above the rest you will lose out in the long term due to the time its taken to turn it around and the price in that time frame.

 

I also don't understand why you charge X fee and then give 10% off? So my thoughts are as a client looking at it is your have already over charged me by 10%?

If its the price its the price however my thoughts are...

 

Logo Design £600 ok thats fine

 

Brand Identity!? You charged him £400 for something that should have been done in the above stage ^

 

Other prices ok then we get to the business card

 

£400 2 days!???? I don't get that sorry when you already have the logo above and fonts etc chosen out in the research stage. I think its a bit of a p*** take to spend 2 days playing around with different layouts once you have the core element.

 

Id also ditch the hourly rate on this kind of project in the future unless your standing head and shoulders above the rest you will lose out in the long term due to the time its taken to turn it around and the price in that time frame.

 

I also don't understand why you charge X fee and then give 10% off? So my thoughts are as a client looking at it is your have already over charged me by 10%?

 

Hi Pandadoodle, I will explain the points you raised.

 

So the Brand identity stage involves the production of a printed style guide which shows which typefaces, colours, and graphic elements which form the identity and various use cases along with all the deliverables in digital format. But perhaps you have a point here, I'll look into it next time.

 

2 days for business cards is not unreasonable. His business cards are not just going to be just the logo/colours slapped on a grid and digitally printed. I work with a traditional letterpress and litho printer in Manchester and we go through various stocks and finishing methods (hot foiling, die cutting, Spot UV varnish). It's a totally bespoke job and it'll take me at least 2 days and quite a bit of travelling.

 

The reason for the 10% discount is because the client rejected the original quote. He has recently hooked me up a full-time job interview at a studio in Manchester and this was a goodwill gesture.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

Hi Pandadoodle, I will explain the points you raised.

 

So the Brand identity stage involves the production of a printed style guide which shows which typefaces, colours, and graphic elements which form the identity and various use cases along with all the deliverables in digital format. But perhaps you have a point here, I'll look into it next time.

 

2 days for business cards is not unreasonable. His business cards are not just going to be just the logo/colours slapped on a grid and digitally printed. I work with a traditional letterpress and litho printer in Manchester and we go through various stocks and finishing methods (hot foiling, die cutting, Spot UV varnish). It's a totally bespoke job and it'll take me at least 2 days and quite a bit of travelling.

 

The reason for the 10% discount is because the client rejected the original quote. He has recently hooked me up a full-time job interview at a studio in Manchester and this was a goodwill gesture.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt

 

Isnt it the customers job to decided on his finishing methods and for him to pick and you advise? It just seems your trying to get your traveling expenses covered for a day trip, I've got stock piles of samples made up on a swatch with different stock and finishings on each one I get that done and dusted there and then with the client.

 

The 10% still makes no difference to me, he rejected your quote so you took 10% off which is around 7 hours of your time your now loosing out on the job? You can either do it for the original price or you can't.

 

I'm not looking to offend you or anyone but it all seems a bit of a complicated price break down you seem to have a set figure in mind that YOU want then filled in hour slots to justify your time.

 

I think over 1 business week turn around for the job is also a bit excessive. If as you say everything is taken care of in the "branding stage" then why do all the other areas take so long?

 

If he's agreed to pay then thats all fine, but Id look at your price break down in the future as you could end up loosing out on work!

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

Edited July 4, 201115 yr by pandadoodle

Hi Matt

 

Isnt it the customers job to decided on his finishing methods and for him to pick and you advise? It just seems your trying to get your traveling expenses covered for a day trip, I've got stock piles of samples made up on a swatch with different stock and finishings on each one I get that done and dusted there and then with the client.

 

The 10% still makes no difference to me, he rejected your quote so you took 10% off which is around 7 hours of your time your now loosing out on the job? You can either do it for the original price or you can't.

 

I'm not looking to offend you or anyone but it all seems a bit of a complicated price break down you seem to have a set figure in mind that YOU want then filled in hour slots to justify your time.

 

I think over 1 business week turn around for the job is also a bit excessive. If as you say everything is taken care of in the "branding stage" then why do all the other areas take so long?

 

If he's agreed to pay then thats all fine, but Id look at your price break down in the future as you could end up loosing out on work!

 

Cheers

 

Gerry

 

Thanks Gerry,

 

The client had never heard of letterpress printing, and when I showed him some samples he decided he wanted to go that route and was willing to pay the extra in this case. I would never force this upon a client just because it's a passion of mine. As for the travelling expenses, I cycle so it's purely the time I'm charging for here. But I see your point nontheless.

 

I'll definitely bookmark your suggestions for next time. I think a more through design proposal would have helped to identify a proper timescale/charging method.

 

Would you be willing to share an example quote/invoice of your own? With personal data obfuscated of course.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

Edited July 4, 201115 yr by Matt Harrison

Thanks Gerry,

 

The client had never heard of letterpress printing, and when I showed him some samples he decided he wanted to go that route and was willing to pay the extra in this case. I would never force this upon a client just because it's a passion of mine. As for the travelling expenses, I cycle so it's purely the time I'm charging for here. But I see your point nontheless.

 

I'll definitely bookmark your suggestions for next time. I think a more through design proposal would have helped to identify a proper timescale/charging method.

 

Would you be willing to share an example quote/invoice of your own? With personal data obfuscated of course.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

 

Matt if you charged him for "off time" i.e you cycling someplace then sir i dip my cap at you!

 

So does the business card cost include printing also? IF so thats a different thing all together and you should break that down again!?

 

If I need to quote a job per hour I have a fairly good idea how long things will take now and If not based on experience I'll estimate +4 working hours on top and I'll boot up a time keeper and record my time so the client gets an exact price. So id look at the work and go ok this is 6 hours work

 

6 hours @ £55 for psd creation £330

 

My invoices are never detailed they have a description & cost per project. I don't charge per hour id rather work a day rate that way the customer has more to come away with and it allows me to scale my time to meet any additional needs that arise.

 

My time is broken down in the contract i.e 6 weeks to complete the project covering these aspects and so on, or I advice that the second phase can only continue based on client signing off on areas, no point me charging £10,000 and claiming 6 weeks to complete if the customer goes away on holiday and I don't hear from them for 2 weeks.

 

Work stops until I get an email back or meet up and sing off on that area. You could quote 8 days on this yeah but some bits might turn up and although you spent the same numbers of hours on it its taken you 16 days things like that pop up all the time when you work on your own, thats why id look at a job and say 3 days work @ £X = £XXXX rather than X hours.

 

IF you do quote per day or per project make a note of your hourly rate in your contract and id also advice you to put any alterations done to the job outside of hours are charged at £25 + 10% at least. Like for me once a section is signed off that it if I need to go back and alter it its charged at double time, same goes if I fail to meet a deadline half my day rate or hourly rate is taken off the project until completed and so on

I find it impossible to charge by the hour , custom jobs never go to plan and you can spend hours even days trying to implement them. Keep it simple quote a estimate project cost and stick to it if possible , you don't need to advertise how much you get paid per hour unless requested.

16 Hours to design a business card, 8 Hrs for a letterhead - bloody hell!

 

At the agency where I work, the designers get a couple of hours max for small things like business cards and letterheads (only know that because I sit next to one of them).

 

You get what you pay for

To be fair, if you're spending 16 hours designing a business card then you're probably spending a tad too long lol (go to any commercial job saying you've spend 16 designing a business card and you'll get laughed out of the building)

 

I'm sure you do get what you pay for (well, I know for a fgact you do - to a limit when the charges become excessive for the sake of it). Some top design agencies don't charghe what you just have. Maybe if you had lots of commercial experince, with a great portfolio at a push. However, with all due respect, you're a student with next to none of the latter

 

The prices you've given, looks like they're from one of the those trendy and expensive agencies in Manchester.

 

However, if what you're doing is truely exceptional then fair play I guess, esp. if you have a client willing to pay well over the odds.

 

Would interested in seeing some of the stuff you do, now I know how much you're charging lol

 

The business card design includes providing various options to the client, having him give feedback and then implementing the resulting revisions. It's not a cheapo digital vistaprint job. They're going to be 2 spot colour letter-pressed and die-cut cards on 500micron stock. The client gets 100 as a sample including the mag plates for any future runs. 2 days billed work isn't unrealistic for this, sorry.

 

I'm not a student either. I work in one of those 'trendy and expensive agencies in Manchester'. They charge 3 times what I charge for a designer's day rate.

Edited July 17, 201115 yr by Matt Harrison

Relax

 

Just saying, kudos if you can charge those prices then fair play.

 

Sorry, I just get frustrated on this site. Always feeling like I'm justifying my own existence. I do enough of that with clients.