June 1, 200917 yr I've gotten myself into a bit of a situation... I'm currently doing a few jobs for a consultancy company, I have been working on a project for the past 2-3 months, which has now reached the stage where they are saying it is more or less complete - and are requesting I hand over the original Illustrator documents, now to this date I have not received a penny for the work. I have confronted them about this and they claim that they work on the basis of completing a project, which is then passed onto the client, and then they received full payment. They are saying the designs need a few tweaks (which I have offered to do), hence the request for the original documents. I know this is a very strange method of operating, especially without a deposit, and I feel as though they are trying to take advantage of me as I am a student without a lot of experience working in the professional world at present. How foolish would it be to hand over an Illustrator document, in the hope that I will receive payment 1-2 weeks or possibly months down the line? I was always advised/under the impression clients paid a deposit upfront, and that if a design agency is contracting someone to work for them, it is there duty to pay the contractors, regardless of client payment dates, or weather or not the client even coughs up the cash. Any help or advice on what to do in this situation, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
June 1, 200917 yr Don't take my word for anything as I am inexperienced also, but here's my 2 cents on it. You should give a client a quote at first, and get at least half the money if they are happy with it and the other half on completion. If they have contracted you for a project then the tweaks should be left to you. I definitely wouldn't be handing over 2 months without a penny, but you have kind of dug yourself into a hole now because you can either risk wasting 2 months on a project and get nothing for it, or give away 2 months work for absolutely no cost. There are more educated brains on this than me as I have just graduated myself and lack experience, so keep your eyes peeled and good luck in the future.
June 1, 200917 yr Author I know what you mean, it's a bit of an negative situation I'm in at the minute, but I'm just viewing the positive; in that I'm standing up for myself and trying not to get ripped off. I'd rather waste the two months, than get ripped off and feel stupid because of it. The whole situation just seems like they are telling me porkies, even from a brief scan through the forum, it seems most, if not all people expect a deposit upfront. I have offered to make the changes like you mentioned, but they have said it would be completely impractical to communicate these changes and it would be much simpler to just hand over the Illustrator documents and let them do it. Common sense says handing over a project to the point of having no more involvement in it, without getting paid a dime is a silly risk. I said this to them, and stated that it would be difficult to find any professional who would do this, but they are saying this is exactly how the business works. I'll know in future to make sure everything is contracted, it's just an awful situation to be in as I am inexperienced and find it hard to stand up for yourself against people who are more "in the know" than myself. I know from experience that even doing design jobs for friends; once you've handed over the finished product - it's a nightmare to get people to pay up.
June 2, 200917 yr Surely you dont need to hand over the original documents for them to see what changes need to be made. In example, a small web design project that im working on at the moment has been completed. As this was for a friend I havent asked for a deposit and expect the full amount (which is a mere £50) upon completion. This links to what im saying because ive sent them a link to the site, but not sent them any passwords/files. This way, until they pay me, the work still remains mine and can be removed at any time if neccessary. Even though they dont have the files doesnt mean that they cant suggest improvements for the site. As its an image (i presume) that we're talking about here then i say that why dont you send them a low quality flat image (jpg or png) of the final piece. This way they can see the final piece and suggest improvements, but they dont have the files that youve spent two months developing. Depending on how much youve quoted for the proect, you could ask for a small amount of money in exchange for the files, as a kind of sign of goodwill. Say if you originally quoted £2000 for the two months work, you request £150 in exchange for the files now, with the understanding that the other £1850 will be paid when the whole project is completed. This way is kind of like a late deposit for the work youve done. And even if they dont pay the rest, at least youve got a little bit of cash for the work youve done (to ease the "ive been scammed" feeling). I hope this all makes sense. Good luck with whatever you decide.
June 2, 200917 yr Creative, can you provide with some more information. are you working solo or part of a team? do you have a contract with the client? What have you valued the project at? did you charge per hour or fixed rate? who is the client? (big company, little company? your lucky it isnt an MP, you would be screwed as they always get their own way - sorry, couldnt resist ) Until i have this, ill just try to give some more general advice. I project manage and deal with all client relations for my projects, so can tell you how we would handle it. As im sure you have guessed, we would already have a deposit, however, ill pretend its an extreme circumstance where i was so high on morphine that i forgot. In an ideal world, i was want the full money right there, before i release anything. If its a site, they can see a test site (with the right click options removed) on my hosting space. If its an image, they can see it, with a nice watermark to stop them stealing it, or a low quality jpeg, depending on what suits best. If you give it some thought, and you dont think they will cough up the 100% right now (most big companies would argue against you, specifically if your a "little freelancer") I would want 50% now to release the work, and then 50% in 2 (or 4, you need to discuss this with them) weeks. Get this on a contract, invoice accordingly, and if they dont pay, take them to court. Even if you end up losing a day of your time, and make no money from it, it'll give them enough of a bloody nose (unless theyre a huge multinatonal company - who would likely be using a large agency anyway) that they wont try it again. Some of the people i work with, i work purely as i manage the projects, and take a small 10-12% charge, in exchange for me handling all money, and dealing with all contracts/customer relations. This may seem like alot, but as i come in from a "team" point of view, rather than a 1 man operation, it does give me slightly more clout when dealing with problems like this. If you need any more help, dont be afraid to give me a shout. Reaper
June 2, 200917 yr Author Surely you dont need to hand over the original documents for them to see what changes need to be made. In example, a small web design project that im working on at the moment has been completed. As this was for a friend I havent asked for a deposit and expect the full amount (which is a mere £50) upon completion. This links to what im saying because ive sent them a link to the site, but not sent them any passwords/files. This way, until they pay me, the work still remains mine and can be removed at any time if neccessary. Even though they dont have the files doesnt mean that they cant suggest improvements for the site. As its an image (i presume) that we're talking about here then i say that why dont you send them a low quality flat image (jpg or png) of the final piece. This way they can see the final piece and suggest improvements, but they dont have the files that youve spent two months developing. Depending on how much youve quoted for the proect, you could ask for a small amount of money in exchange for the files, as a kind of sign of goodwill. Say if you originally quoted £2000 for the two months work, you request £150 in exchange for the files now, with the understanding that the other £1850 will be paid when the whole project is completed. This way is kind of like a late deposit for the work youve done. And even if they dont pay the rest, at least youve got a little bit of cash for the work youve done (to ease the "ive been scammed" feeling). I hope this all makes sense. Good luck with whatever you decide. I have shown them several PDF documents containing variations and requested changes to the work, now they want the Illustrator file to make a few changes. Naturally, I have offered to do this, but they claim it would be impossible to communicate the changes and would be much simpler to give them the Illustrator file to make the adjustments. They have offered to pay 50% of the project, but only when they have received the Illustrator files, and then the remaining 50% "when they get paid" - which could be any time, It's beyond me why they havn't taken a deposit from the client in the first place. Creative, can you provide with some more information. are you working solo or part of a team? I'm working solo for a consulting company. do you have a contract with the client? Unfortunately not, I am quite new to this, apart from working for people I know, so this is my first big mistake. What have you valued the project at? did you charge per hour or fixed rate? who is the client? (big company, little company? your lucky it isnt an MP, you would be screwed as they always get their own way - sorry, couldnt resist ) It's charged a fixed rate, the company are quite small and just starting out. Until i have this, ill just try to give some more general advice. I project manage and deal with all client relations for my projects, so can tell you how we would handle it. As im sure you have guessed, we would already have a deposit, however, ill pretend its an extreme circumstance where i was so high on morphine that i forgot. In an ideal world, i was want the full money right there, before i release anything. If its a site, they can see a test site (with the right click options removed) on my hosting space. If its an image, they can see it, with a nice watermark to stop them stealing it, or a low quality jpeg, depending on what suits best. If you give it some thought, and you dont think they will cough up the 100% right now (most big companies would argue against you, specifically if your a "little freelancer") I would want 50% now to release the work, and then 50% in 2 (or 4, you need to discuss this with them) weeks. Get this on a contract, invoice accordingly, and if they dont pay, take them to court. Even if you end up losing a day of your time, and make no money from it, it'll give them enough of a bloody nose (unless theyre a huge multinatonal company - who would likely be using a large agency anyway) that they wont try it again. Some of the people i work with, i work purely as i manage the projects, and take a small 10-12% charge, in exchange for me handling all money, and dealing with all contracts/customer relations. This may seem like alot, but as i come in from a "team" point of view, rather than a 1 man operation, it does give me slightly more clout when dealing with problems like this. If you need any more help, dont be afraid to give me a shout. Reaper I just feel like they are trying to rip me off, I don't think I am expecting to much for a deposit sine I havn't seen a penny for months. They are offering to pay 50% once they have received the Illustrator documents, but even this seems a bit suspicious that they won't hand over a cheque until they have the original files - even though they have seen several proofs of the work in PDF format, so it's not as though I could be claiming to have done it and then do a runner with their money. I just have a bad feeling I will hand them over and either never hear from them again, or have a hard time getting payment, they could easily claim they never got paid, and that means I don't get paid either. At this early point in my career, the last thing I want is to be ripped off, which would be a major dent in my confidence, I have spoken to others I know who are freelancing for the same company, who have said the same thing, they are developing websites for them, and have been told they will receive payment once the final design has been handed over and the client has paid for it.
June 2, 200917 yr Sounds as though they're trying to rip you off. Suggest you try the following: 1) Tell them that the Illustrator files are your copyrighted material and as such do not form part of the project deliverables. PDFs have been supplied of the changes requested to date which is sufficient to demonstrate the changes have been made. 2) Invoice them for work completed to date asking for immediate payment on this basis (suggest 50% of whatever you originally agreed). 3) Then follow up with a call or email saying you've invoiced them for the work you've carried out so far based on verbal agreements. If they kick back with the "We want access to the source files" again, you can say that's fine but that will cost extra as it's your copyrighted material. This is a good example of why you must have a contract in place before doing any work for a client. However you "way round this" is the invoice. Essentially this will act as the last reference to agreement and coupled with emails becomes as good as a contract if you go to small claims court. Alternatively give them the files, walk away and chalk it up as a bad deal, never to be repeated.
June 2, 200917 yr Creative, Do you have your own website with a portfolio? It would also be worth putting your Terms and Conditions on there. Settle on 25% now, 25% after they recieve files, 50% when they get paid (no more than 8 weeks) Reaper
June 2, 200917 yr Author I do indeed, just re-developing it at the moment, so will get them up there - any links to good sources that will help me in writing terms & conditions - and also developing invoices? I have spoken again with them, and they won't shift on the deposit, they have called me unprofessional etc in how I am acting towards this and are again assuring me this is how the industry works - which I know is total rubbish. They are saying now they are going to reproduce the designs themselves to meet their deadline - isn't this a breach of copyright though if they produce an exact copy of the previews I have sent them previously? It just feels as though they are trying to take advantage of students doing work on the side of them - perhaps I am wrong, but if someone has seen numerous previews of the work and know's it exists and is what they requested - I just can't understand what their problem is handing over a deposit for the source files. Especially if they are now going to reproduce the work themselves; costing them time & money - it would be much simplier to just send across the payment, and I'll send the work across to them straight away. Where do I stand if they do reproduce the designs exactly? Originally they provided me with a few ideas and concepts they wanted produced digitally and breifly sketched them down on paper, they also specified fonts to be used in this. I then developed these ideas in Illustrator, and provided my own variations on the layout, colour scheme etc - I still have all the original source files with the dates they were created & modified, along with pages and pages of more detailed sketches and additional ideas.
June 2, 200917 yr First of all do you have any contract with them ? if not you really dont have a leg to stand on as they can state anything they like as it was alll done by word of mouth! .. I would quickly wright up a contract stating that they are required to pay you the fee within 48 hours of receiving the files ... This then covers you to sue them if they dont pay also state in there that you require the other 50% when the site goes live.. Also if they do not do this and then they use design or make a copy of it i would tell them that you are willing to start legal proceedings against them ... In the mean time upload a version to a server as this should keep a record of your upload date and time and can be used to prove you designed it first due to time and date stamps.. Also i think if this first project has gone to this point that any future work with this company will not go smoothly and your working relationship is damaged from the start. Hope this helps as ive never been in this situation myself... Good luck Also i would name and shame them if this project fails down .. stop others from getting the same treatment !!!
June 2, 200917 yr it may be worth putting a contract in place right now, to make them have to pay you the 50%, if they wont sign, they are scum and should be named and shamed accordingly. Feel free to send me a copy of your portfolio (via pm or email) and the agency name, ill do some digging to see if i can find anything that will help you. Reaper
June 2, 200917 yr Just came across a post that will help you with a contract http://www.webdesignerforum.co.uk/index.ph...ic=3348&hl= Should save you time from making your own and you can send off asap ... Please leave a nice feedback for the poster as they done great to upload this for all to use !!!!!!!
June 3, 200917 yr Author It's all starting to turn a tad sour lol They have now informed me if I am to use the designs in my portfolio, I am in breach of their copyright, since some of the concepts were their idea, plus they have copies of the fonts used, and records of emails asking for requested changes. I thought this would be irrelevant though seeing as I produced the design in Illustratior, for one, they surely can't claim copyright on a font they have downloaded off dafont, and also, can they copyright the ideas they have communicated over email? I have read the sticky on copyright, which states the copyright applies to the fixed material created, not the idea - so wouldn't I be the copyright owner of the design, even though they requested some colour variations and ideas? I have been called unprofessional for creating tension with industry professionals, and they said I have made my first major mistake in this business, the whole situation kind of sucks, especially not the emails are rather sour, but I reckon I'd feel alot worse right now if I'd been ripped off. I guess the only thing to do is learn from the experience and get myself sorted with a contract, I'm starting a years placement in 3 weeks so likely won't give them a second thought by then - it's just the feeling of having some kind of bad stigma attached to my name before I've even really started in the industry, but I don't believe I am in the wrong regarding any of it and handing over artwork with no contract or payment is incredibly risky. My only mistake is not having a contract, but they failed to produce one as well.
June 3, 200917 yr If you haven't yet given them the illustrator file(s), one option would be to simply walk away, screen their calls and send their emails to spam. You sacrifice some money, but you take comfort in the fact that they're a bit buggered as well. There's no contract so they can't sue you. There's a risk of them badmouthing you to other firms, but that's always a risk in this business when something goes wrong, and if you don't currently trying to get business with firms that they're closely involved with, it's probably a small risk.
June 3, 200917 yr I think Andy has hit the nail on the head. If in doubt, walk away! You could ask them for a meeting, arranging for a contract to be agreed now. If you are honest and tell them that without any proof of future payment, you are taking a risk in handing over the files, then they should be fine about sorting you out with some of the money now. I would personally just tell 'em that either you do the changes or nobody does them. If they have someone there who can use illustrator, why aren't they just using it to create high res versions of your low-res mock ups and then make the changes themselves? If I was trying to shaft someone out of payment and no contract was agreed, that is what i'd do! lol
June 3, 200917 yr Unless youve signed an NDA, then they cant copyright the idea (thats how i understand it anyway) Did they supply any images for the design? I'm starting a years placement in 3 weeks so likely won't give them a second thought by then is that with a webdesign company? Reaper
June 3, 200917 yr Author They gave me a few very, very rough sketches scribbled down on paper to get the ideas across - they handed these to me, and I still have them in my possession. Everything else, I created myself in Illustrator. It's beyond the point of coming to some kind of agreement over it now, so it's best to just let it slide I think, they've told me there going to recreate the designs themselves - and I've made them aware of the copyright issues if they replicated the PDF documents I have sent them exactly. I guess the only thing to do is just ignore it now, and perhaps check in a few weeks to see if the designs I've developed are being used somewhere, at least I havn't been ripped off, or lost any money. Reaper - Yes the placement is for a webdesign firm, starting at the end of the month for a year, hopefully I'll have learnt enough working with them to avoid these kind of bad situations in the future lol
June 3, 200917 yr Author If you haven't yet given them the illustrator file(s), one option would be to simply walk away, screen their calls and send their emails to spam. You sacrifice some money, but you take comfort in the fact that they're a bit buggered as well. There's no contract so they can't sue you. There's a risk of them badmouthing you to other firms, but that's always a risk in this business when something goes wrong, and if you don't currently trying to get business with firms that they're closely involved with, it's probably a small risk. This is the only thing that's bothering me about it all, although there are two sides to every story. I've contacted other students from my course I know are working for them, one said they were having the same problem with regards to payment (all the work must be handed over first etc) - and I've also contacted my university for advice and to make them aware of the problem since me and several other students where recruited after this company came to the university to seek out new talent.
June 3, 200917 yr It sounds like they treat everyone they deal with like ****, and are trying to get work done on the cheap (or even for free) - so I think you're probably best walking away, taking your illustrator files with you, and chalking it up to experience. I would even suggest that you pass their name to people whose livelihoods you care about - I wouldn't wish them on any designer. And if in the future you're trying to get business with someone and they say "I know X - he said you let him down", you have the moral high ground and can quite easily justify your actions. EDIT: OK, the asterisks above spelt S H I T - just so we're clear
June 3, 200917 yr OH noes, my eyes! the evil man above swore (S**T is a nice compromise to use) Definately report them to your uni, and get them to send all the talent my way. amazing how hard is it to track down new talent that doesnt want £100 an hour..... hehe Reaper
June 10, 200917 yr This way, until they pay me, the work still remains mine and can be removed at any time if neccessary. Even though they dont have the files doesnt mean that they cant suggest improvements for the site. Don't be so sure I had a large client steal every file from my test server and port them to another one. Be very careful in the way you demo work in progress. I would get them to sign a contract now before you go any further, if you want a copy of a standard terms of service and scope contract send me a PM and I will hook you up.
June 15, 200917 yr creativejunk I have been there mate. Recently finished University but money was so bad that I worked a whole month on a project. It ended up unpaid for certain reasons but I made sure the client did not get the project. There are people who request freelancers to create projects and hope that the freelancer coughs up the files or developes on their own server! They bolt without paying and they do this on regular basis. Here is what I currently do... 1. Develop live on my own server and provide access to clients. 2. Request half upfront possibly once something is there. So your putting in your time, then they are paying, then your putting in more time, you hand the project over and then they pay. Your showing enough trust and being reasonable that way. If any client ever has a problem with that ditch them and launch the project yourself if you can! That is my opinion simply because I don't just look for a once of payment I look for long term clients that I can work with for years. I would tell someon to f**k off if I've spent 2 months coding and they can't offer up some funds. Offtopic, are you a student? I'm currently looking for someone like myself and you sound like your hard working enough to put time in as an investment. If you can spare a week a month, take part in projects and a partnership then contact me. About to setup what is called a Limited Liability Partnership, all legal and managed by accountants so everyone has a share in projects made plus gets paid equal shares. It is the only way to move closer to building a bigger portfolio and getting bigger money as far as I'm concerned. So I'm about to invest a lot of my free time into projects that need to succeed if I am to get paid but I can do with people with other skills. Let me know if your interested. Also, let me know what this website actually is your talking about if you can because I know people who invest or buy good websites, these are the guys involved in setting up the LLP. I invest my time and they invest cash to cover legal and accountant costs for the LLP. It may be that you can join the LLP, put your site in, get some cash instantly as a gesture of goodwill and then get profits from the site forever more. Consider this if your client does not pay or your not keen on launching the site yourself. I know that is not always possible but most sites can be changed for other purposes in some way. Good luck whatever you do mate I know its tough. Checkout my site www.webtechglobal.co.uk and email ryan@webtechglobal.co.uk anytime.
June 15, 200917 yr This situation is a bummer I am sure you will learn from. In this instance, I would let the issue ride, and take it on the chin. If they bad mouth you, so what, they are one fish, speaking to a small shoal of fish in a really big sea. On the otherhand, only put things in your portfolio, where you are happy for a prospective customer to contact the site owner. In other words, you cant use it now We have a very useful technique in ensuring this (and a few other issues dont arise). 1. we have a contract 2. we use phased payments Example (figures are a figment of imagination) Phase 1 - template, basic look and feel of the site £1000 Phase 2 - static parts of the site, dropping content into the template £1000 Phase 3 - Adding e-commerce functionality £1000 Phase 4 - Adding forums, other interactive features - £1000 Phase 5 - SEO, testing etc.. £500 this also comes with WHAT WE EXPECT FROM YOU (i.e. files, data, serve access .. ) Phase 1 - whatever Phase 2 - whatever Phase 3 - whatever Phase 4 - whatever Phase 5 - whatever and TIMESCALES Phase 1 - whatever Phase 2 - whatever Phase 3 - whatever Phase 4 - whatever Phase 5 - whatever The phrase we use is similar to: "to show our commitment to you and your commitment to us we complete the work in agreed phases, which are paid for as each phase is completed, below is an outline of the proposed works, and shedule of payments. Please not that we will require files and information at the beginning of each phase to ensure the smooth progress of your website build" Essentailly, we manage the customer quite closley, and in turn, the build id smoother, and cashflow is more predictable
June 15, 200917 yr Richard King BWP that is a pretty good approach for a good sized project. It helps to point out that different sized projects will require a different approach. Maybe some solid guidelines need to be laid out. The price and number of possible phases in a project can often be very similiar. One key thing that learned quickly when leaving University is that we can develop only part of what our client wants and it is still a product. So sell that product and get your money pretty much like what Richard is saying and then if they like what they have you can quickly move on to the next phase. If they don't it's a bummer but your not out of pocket or wasted 2 months which is what matters. I think I'll be writing out some terms & conditions for clients to read that follow a similiar approach to Richards.
June 15, 200917 yr Give away the design you made as free template. If you want, I can convert your design to WordPress and we give it away. Then you can laugh as they find out that there are gazillion of websites out there that looks exactly the same as their's.
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