Im probably driving you guys mad over this issue ..sorry lol.

 

I want to own my own dating website and to have full control and transfer it without being ripped off. I want to be involved and work with the designer. I will supply and pay for logos and images to be added. I can sort the hosting and domains myself too (via TSO).

 

Ive contacted a website firm today via phone expressing my needs. So that I have it in writing, they have emailed stating that I can transfer both domain and website design (which they supplied) after a year free of charge ..email from an employee. The terms and conditions on their website state the complete opposite. This employee has said I will own the website and his email should cover it. Does an email from an employee of a firm overide the terms and conditions of the firms main website? I doubt it.

 

The terms and conditions state: to transfer a domain from them will cost one years hosting (£99). Also states I wont own the website design. That was for a basic package website not a dating site.

 

This firm will not let me supply my own domain name and hosting, so I do feel:"Its a trap!"

 

I think a freelance designer is becoming the best option with an appropriate contract.

When it comes to ownership of material, that should be specified in a contract, usually the website design as a whole belongs to you but there may be images or content on licence, they do this not to trap you but to stop people simply giving the work away to anyone who asks for it.

 

When it comes to the hosting, some offer free hosting for a year, if you take it up then you don't have to worry about it, if you don't take it up there may be reasonable charges at cost for them to do certain things, an example might be that the web host you choose runs on something other than MySQL, consequently the database coding htaccess files may need to be changed to reflect this or worse still another programmer bought in to code it for them.

 

They also do this so that they have easy access to your files should something so wrong, many an occasion a client forgets their ftp username and password and expect the web company to chase it up, it's simply convenient and much faster if it's on a server you run or own.

 

There is nothing wrong with using a freelancer but there is a little more risk compared to established businesses, the obvious is the money side of things and the second is the quality of what you recieve and also the contract details.

It depends on what the freelancer / agency has planned for this project. It's one thing to say you can host it, but depending on the technology they use, it's often not as simple as putting it on a TSO package. They may host assets on S3, use mail servers such as Mandrill ect, it can be a real pain.

One of the difficulties you may run into is support. If you ask the freelancer / agency to fix an issue on your site, and it turns out to be a hosting issue, you may get billed for that time. It's difficult to support different hosting environments, and a lot of people simply won't, because they have their own hosting that fits the exact requirements needed to run the platform.

so I do feel:"Its a trap!"

Not every agency or freelancer will operate like this, but I can see why some do. It's nothing to do with them wanting to own your site, it's more about supporting it. Custom applications can be difficult to support at the best of times, it's even more difficult when you have no control over the hosting.

Again, it depends on what the plan is. If this is going to be built on an open source CMS, it's generally going to be easier to transfer, and the agency will be more likely to allow that. Mainly because hosting companies are already geared up for the likes of Wordpress, Drupal ect. If it's custom built, I don't think many would.

The terms and conditions state: to transfer a domain from them will cost one years hosting (£99). Also states I wont own the website design.

 

I read that as you have to pay a years hosting if you want to transfer before a year is up, i.e the first year. Best get it in writing in a formal contract though.

 

As for not owning the design, it likely means you won't own the copyrights to the design (they will) but you will have the rights to use it for the site set out in the contract (your dating site).

 

This basically prevents you from taking the design and code and creating another, new site with that design and code by just changing a few colours/images, etc.

 

This clause is the case with freelancers too (at least experienced ones). If you want to own the site completely you will need to negotiate transferal of copyrights which will likely cost you a bit.

Edited November 26, 201411 yr by Paul Murray

Ok guys thanks for those useful comments. I acknowledge some amount of copyright with the designer. And the additional costs for moving and sorting issues. Which will occur. I will need to study any contract very carefully when I take the plunge, and try to reduce the risks.

 

I do understand they need to protect their work from plagiarism too. I suppose its about balance and knowing exactly what is in the contract.

 

I think I would idealy like to create my own design or template, and have a expert do all the user accounts, billing security stuff. That seems rather unrealistic now with all the complications. And I havnt designed a site since 2008.

 

Paul: I think it means £99 regardless of where you are in contract, if you want to move the domain.

Edited November 26, 201411 yr by Neal Joseph

When you work with freelancers or a firm you never 'own' the designs, all you own is the permission to use them which is why clients are generally never passed over Photoshop files etc as that would give them full control over the design files - all you are paying for is the agency or freelancer's time to put the website together for you, some agencies may require you to pay additional fees to release their source files, its generally a standard business practise unless stated otherwise in your contract.

My current plan: is to purchase dreamweaver (Ive used it before) and try to develop some designs myself, see how I go. Find out what my limitations are. Start with a site for my private psychological therapy first, before jumping in at the deep end with a dating website. So I know specifically what I need when I purchase additional help. Ive almost nil coding skills in HTML or CSS, have played around with flash quite a bit.

 

The above plan may help me aviod some contractual ownership issues and help me learn.

 

I may also try EE as a lot of you guys here rate it

Edited November 27, 201411 yr by Neal Joseph

My current plan: is to purchase dreamweaver (Ive used it before) and try to develop some designs myself, see how I go. Find out what my limitations are. Start with a site for my private psychological therapy first, before jumping in at the deep end with a dating website. So I know specifically what I need when I purchase additional help. Ive almost nil coding skills in HTML or CSS, have played around with flash quite a bit.

 

The above plan may help me aviod some contractual ownership issues and help me learn.

 

I may also try EE as a lot of you guys here rate it

 

I wouldn't buy Dreamweaver if you don't know HTML/CSS. Without knowing what the code does and why things aren't working, you'll struggle even more.

 

There are loads of free IDE programs out there that let you write HTML and CSS, but they're just text documents really, so Notepad or any basic text editor will do the trick.

 

I wouldn't buy Dreamweaver if you don't know HTML/CSS. Without knowing what the code does and why things aren't working, you'll struggle even more.

 

There are loads of free IDE programs out there that let you write HTML and CSS, but they're just text documents really, so Notepad or any basic text editor will do the trick.

Hi Paul, I have managed to create websites using dreamweaver and without delving much into the code. I think I worded my reply poorly, I dont want to learn coding unless I have too. Hence dreamweaver.

Hi Paul, I have managed to create websites using dreamweaver and without delving much into the code. I think I worded my reply poorly, I dont want to learn coding unless I have too. Hence dreamweaver.

 

Just a point to note here that there is a big difference between making a website with a point and click generator such as Dreamweaver vs a speed tested, responsive, hand coded seo success. Not trying to dampen your flame, just want to ensure you understand the final product will be reflected in the knowledge and skills you have available to put in.

 

As an example I just had a client move to a cheaper option of a friend designing for them. They've moved the nameservers to their new out the box point and click wordpress site which is standard to say the least, has no onsite seo considerations and when I asked "Did you set up a site map and 301 any relevant pages to their new sections?" they replied "No, didn't set a site map. Haven't a clue how to!". This is why unfortunately designing a site is far more than aesthetics, there's always 'it works' and 'dang, that works well'.

Hi Paul, I have managed to create websites using dreamweaver and without delving much into the code. I think I worded my reply poorly, I dont want to learn coding unless I have too. Hence dreamweaver.

 

Without a server side language your dating site will just be a static HTML template. Dreamweaver won't write the server side and database stuff for you (you wouldn't want it to anyway, it can't even write HTML correctly). If you want to create the site yourself, learning code is unavoidable, otherwise you'll have to hire a developer.

 

Without a server side language your dating site will just be a static HTML template. Dreamweaver won't write the server side and database stuff for you (you wouldn't want it to anyway, it can't even write HTML correctly). If you want to create the site yourself, learning code is unavoidable, otherwise you'll have to hire a developer.

 

This ^^ Websites have become way too complicated now for somebody to create properly without prior coding knowledge. The only way would be to use a pre built system, then you loose any kind of brand identity etc etc. Like other industries you get what you pay for.

You can't just go and build your own house without prior knowledge in plumbing, electrics and all the other stuff, the same principles apply here. You can either take the time to learn or pay the going rate.

If this stuff was easy to do using a point a click interface then developers wouldn't be in such demand and command the high wages they do.

Edited November 28, 201411 yr by rbrtsmith

Ok..... I am here to find out whats best ... the websites I did with dreamweaver in the past was basic and full of errors. But I learned a lot.

 

I think the building your own house analogy/symbolism fits perfectly.

 

Now I know why dreamweaver is hardly mentioned here.

 

==================

 

Im back to hire a freelance or a firm. Or do a course of study learn the codes.

 

Thanks for the help need to think some more.

Neal,

 

The guys above are giving you great advice...professional web designers and web developers will do a much better job of what you want than you'll ever be able to do yourself based on 'a course to learn the codes'. You'd probably be better spending the time on budget and business planning and finding resources rather than learning PHP/ASP, a database language, JavaScript/jQuery, Ajax, SEO, UX, responsive design, server management and many other technologies and skills.

 

Just my two penneth.

I could never learn that lot lol.

 

Ok I need a pro.

Neal,

 

The guys above are giving you great advice...professional web designers and web developers will do a much better job of what you want than you'll ever be able to do yourself based on 'a course to learn the codes'. You'd probably be better spending the time on budget and business planning and finding resources rather than learning PHP/ASP, a database language, JavaScript/jQuery, Ajax, SEO, UX, responsive design, server management and many other technologies and skills.

 

Just my two penneth.

 

Totally agree, most of us have put in thousands of hours of study to get to the level we're at. Unless the op wants to do web development as a career then I too would advise against trying to learn all that's required for this kind of site, as a site for a hobbyist then it's fine but as a business no.

 

It is cheaper to pay an agency when you compare with the cost in time to learn everything yourself. Of course it's useful to know some basics, this will give you a better idea if an agency or freelancer is any good. Going with the cheapest developer / agency should also be met with caution -- it could work out great value for money, but at the same time if it's so cheap it's likely they are inexperienced. take a look into their background and portfolio.

Hi Robert: my plan is ever changing due to the advice and research I am doing here and elsewhere.

 

I am on a limited budget, also the overhead costs compared to risk also have to be balanced. My choice of freelancer or firm to build the project will not be down to the cheapest I agree with you. Will consider their portfolio, personality, location etc etc. I am determined to get stuck in (I want too!) and help with the build without frustrating the designer by ****ing up his hard work....and adding to my costs.

 

Plan revision IV (please comment)

 

1. Purchase domian names TSO

 

2. Obtain host TSO

 

3. Have a go at a basic therapy website myself (as an experiment, fun, learning) Commision logo and graphics for it.

 

4. Create a rough webdesign on paper for the dating site (already done)

 

5. Commision logo and marketing graphics for dating site.

 

6. Upload my rough ideas for the dating site, colours, graphics so that potential designers can see roughly what I want. But can hopefully show me better.

 

7. Ask designers to give me a price and contract that suits both parties. Im obsessed with owning it! lol. Will consider both freelance and firms.

 

========

 

The other stages are "ongoing" research..marketing, maintenance, problem solving technical issues, etc.

 

 

 

Im not sure if I should leave the logo and graphics commisioning until after Ive obtained a designer?

Before you do all that, write an in-depth business plan if you haven't already to identify potential problem areas before they arise. Why are you starting yet another dating site. Why is it different? How will it make money? Why are you the person to run it? How will you reach your target market, etc? Be open and honest with yourself, if you don't have an answer to a question or problem, find one and plan it out. Show it to other people. What questions do they have that you haven't considered?

 

As for designing the site, don't jump straight into the sketching process. You need to consider the content and structure very carefully. Plan out how users will be able to get from A to B, or even from A to C if needs be. What will they need/want to see as soon as they log in or visit the site? List all the pages you'll need. When you take into account login pages, sign up pages, error pages, messages, harassment reports, t&cs, privacy policies, etc etc, you'll probably find there's a lot more than you originally thought.

 

Consider it like a map of a journey. You wouldn't just jump in a car and start driving, you'd have a clear idea where you were going and how you would get there.

Ok Cosmos thanks, btw I like the mild humour @@studio cosmos

 

Ive done most of the first paragraph as you stated, inc pages I will need. Attempting to keep to the 3 click rule seems impossible. Have created a specific red book/notepad for all my notes, ideas and plans on this. I keep it at the side of my bed in case I find insiration during the night.

 

Most of what you stated in your second para: those details Ive not touched yet. Some of those Ive never thought of thanks. I will be joining a couple of dating sites as part of my research. I am looking for a partner anyway, so a nice mature female web designer type will suit me fine lol. Know anyone? hehe.

 

I have discussed my ideas with family and close friends who are logically skeptical at first when I say its a dating website. However when I explain the details they think its a good idea.

Edited November 30, 201411 yr by Neal Joseph

To be fair, in my experience it actually takes me a lot longer to work with a client who likes to get 'stuck in' They inevitably create bugs, and these bugs can take a lot of time to locate and fix. I know you are enthusiastic and think it might reduce costs, but the likelyhood is that it will actually increase them. The only thing we allow clients do is data entry and attend brainstorming meetings at the start of a project. Of course they get to approve of designs and can offer feedback, but we don't in anyway allow them to input code, that would be a recipe for disaster and would increase costs to the client as a result.

 

You should attend meetings with them where you can brainstorm and add your input that way.

Edited December 1, 201411 yr by rbrtsmith

To be fair, in my experience it actually takes me a lot longer to work with a client who likes to get 'stuck in' They inevitably create bugs, and these bugs can take a lot of time to locate and fix. I know you are enthusiastic and think it might reduce costs, but the likelyhood is that it will actually increase them. The only thing we allow clients do is data entry and attend brainstorming meetings at the start of a project. Of course they get to approve of designs and can offer feedback, but we don't in anyway allow them to input code, that would be a recipe for disaster and would increase costs to the client as a result.

 

You should attend meetings with them where you can brainstorm and add your input that way.

 

I am unable to code, I suppose I would want to fiddle with graphics and design. I understand and agree with what you have stated. I would want to add data and maintain the website myself...although I honestly do not know what I would "maintain?" to keep the site functioning after completion: deleting accounts, sorting registration problems, responding to emails. etc etc..

 

I also assume I will always need a designer (or the designer) on hand?

I am unable to code, I suppose I would want to fiddle with graphics and design. I understand and agree with what you have stated. I would want to add data and maintain the website myself...although I honestly do not know what I would "maintain?" to keep the site functioning after completion: deleting accounts, sorting registration problems, responding to emails. etc etc..

 

I also assume I will always need a designer (or the designer) on hand?

A client fiddling with a design is a designers nightmare, why hire a designer if you think you can do it yourself? A client does and should have input but it should never interfere with the design itself as the design is not for you, it's for your audience. Unless you have personally done your audience research and understand how to create suitable designs in response to that research, I would simply answer the questions your designer gives you and only offer input about whether the designs they created for you are suitable by asking the question why something is that way and how can it be improved to suit the audience better.

 

Once the design is complete the only 'design' aspects I would expect a client to do is to add content as they want if the site has that ability.

A client fiddling with a design is a designers nightmare, why hire a designer if you think you can do it yourself? A client does and should have input but it should never interfere with the design itself as the design is not for you, it's for your audience. Unless you have personally done your audience research and understand how to create suitable designs in response to that research, I would simply answer the questions your designer gives you and only offer input about whether the designs they created for you are suitable by asking the question why something is that way and how can it be improved to suit the audience better.

 

Once the design is complete the only 'design' aspects I would expect a client to do is to add content as they want if the site has that ability.

 

I agree. Mostly. A client still has to give approval of the design. I think most of the clients input should be in the preliminary brainstorming sessions. If the client has been in the business for many years then chances are they will know the target market better than a designer would. This is the time where both parties can do the research to come up with a good solution. Then the designer should be given space to do what they do best, while collaborating with whoever is going to code the UI

I agree. Mostly. A client still has to give approval of the design. I think most of the clients input should be in the preliminary brainstorming sessions. If the client has been in the business for many years then chances are they will know the target market better than a designer would. This is the time where both parties can do the research to come up with a good solution. Then the designer should be given space to do what they do best, while collaborating with whoever is going to code the UI

Agreed, just to add though I think what you are talking about there mostly is concept which of course the client always should have input on, with approval at stages too.

Agreed, just to add though I think what you are talking about there mostly is concept which of course the client always should have input on, with approval at stages too.

 

Yes that is correct. It's important to give a creative person like a designer room to breathe, same goes for coding too. Not good to be interrupted when you mind is stuck deep within an algorithm you are trying to solve.

I did used to subscribe to that thinking

Used to?

One thing I'll add is that a top agency will have a specialist in each area, it's highly unlikely you will find a freelancer that is as proficient at all aspects of a website as a team of specialists. The plus you have with a freelancer is the lower overheads, and a good freelancer will clearly be better than a poor agency. There are plenty of bad agencies around.

One thing I'll add is that a top agency will have a specialist in each area, it's highly unlikely you will find a freelancer that is as proficient at all aspects of a website as a team of specialists.

 

True. That's the main benefit going to an agency, they are a collective with knowledge of a range of fields whereas, a freelancer will tend to specialise on one or two areas.

 

Don't forget, many studios rely on freelancers to complete tasks they can't handle themselves though (whilst adding a mark-up on their rates of course). There's a number of times I've worked in a small studio on a project they've taken on despite not having anyone in-house that can do it, simply because they didn't want to turn away the client. Like that Branson quote (sort of) says, "Agree to do something, then learn how to do it."

 

So, you could just hire multiple freelancers yourself and project manage them, though this could potentially be more expensive and risky than actually going with an established agency in the first place.

We used to outsource stuff, mostly when we were running short on time, however we stopped because the quality was very rarely upto standard, we would have to re-factor and might as well have done it ourselves. We now prefer to refer out clients elsewhere if we are too busy.. it can be quite damaging to your brand image if a few poorly executed projects go out. In short the issue is quality control, you have very little if you outsource.

 

I guess for the client it's hard for them to know if an agency outsources, but If I was paying a premium to use a highly rated agency I'd want their developers working on it, not a freelancer who may not be upto the same standard. I'd probably actually request that it not be outsourced.

The comments here are useful thanks. I think my question is impossible to anwer specifically. Ive gone in circles with the replies.

 

Its a complicated risk no matter whom I choose. Ive have to consider my budget and risks to return. I have to develop a detailed plan and know what is involved with the project.

 

Ideally one expert who can do all is my choice, a trustworthy freelancer with a contract that suits us both.

 

I do understand your reasoning and know this is commonly quoted selling point agencies use (I used to use it msyelf when I worked for agencies ), but since I started freelancing in the summer I just don't see this with specialism. If anything, they lack the knowledge and have made some seriously bad mistakes. I've inherited 8 projects this years from agencies scattered over the country and some of the work is just pants.

 

I go to networking events all over the country and listen to large agencies speak about their subject - I just don't see this specialism reflected at all.

 

As a freelancer, I have just last week, inherited my largest development project (bespoke Laravel system) to date that an large local agency did not have the technical knowledge to complete. I've seen every piece of code this agency wrote and it's frankly, embarassing.

 

For me, I've been freelancing and out pitched two large agencies (one with 20 employees, 8 of whom are developers) on a very large project, that included a ton of CRO, front and back end work. From what I've seen this year alone since freelancing is that an agency doesn't give a wholke lot of benefit - they just more costly to the client. However, maybe I haven't come across any good agencies yet, dunno

 

Also, there ios so much more that clients look for than if you're a large agency - this has surprised even me, having worked for several agancies over the last 8 or so years.

 

There are a LOT of bad agencies, granted but that doesn't mean they all are. clearly this will be the same in the freelance world. but a top agency will have specialists - and their prices probably reflect this. We inherit a lot of bad projects that were built by other agencies, we, in the past have also outsourced to freelancers and got nothing but garbage back, so we never outsource at all now.

One thing is apparent and that is that it's difficult to find good quality developers, be it an agency or freelance, you have to do you homework on them

 

One thing is apparent and that is that it's difficult to find good quality developers

 

So true. The good ones are in high demand and seem to be constantly booked up. I'm always weary when I find a developer who IS available!

@@Neal Joseph

 

I believe the original question has been answered. Having read through this thread, it's obvious to me that roles are being fudged.

 

Firstly, when hiring a web designer, don't try to do their job for them by providing sketches. That's their job. Your job is to tell them what your business goals are, what you're trying to achieve, and give them all the info they'll need about the business and the target customers. Then let them do their job of designing the website to cater towards your business goals, and the needs of your target customers. Someone mentioned user flows and information architecture, but I strongly believe that's not your job.

 

You will need a solid business plan to help you find the pitfalls and really think things through. This helps you to get clear on what your business goals are, who your target customers are, where they hang out, how to market the business, etc. This in turn helps the freelancer or agency to deliver the best solution (assuming your business idea actually works out on paper).

 

It doesn't matter if you hire a freelancer or an agency as long as they are experienced and technically capable of delivering within budget, and on schedule. That will require a lot of research on your behalf, but it's a time/money investment, so invest wisely. You need some skin in this venture if you're at all serious about it. Going for the cheaper options is not necessarily wise.

Edited December 21, 201411 yr by cornishninja

Disagree with you cornishninja, the best way for me to explain my idea is to supply as much details as possible about what I want inc sketches. If my designer provides somthing better - all well and good

 

I want to be involved with the design not just submit a business plan. I believe I can do this with the designer in "collaboration". I want somone both practical and creative minded, whom isnt blinded and restricted by any useless text book protocols. But does follow useful text book protocols.

 

Hope that makes sense? I have spent perhaps too much time in higher education studying mindless protocols devised by clever acedemics in two differing careers. Less than 20% was useful. I hope web design courses are far better.

 

i agree about the cheapest option not being the best idea, it will depend on my budget.

Edited January 3, 201511 yr by Neal Joseph

Disagree with you cornishninja, the best way for me to explain my idea is to supply as much details as possible about what I want inc sketches. If my designer provides somthing better - all well and good

 

I want to be involved with the design not just submit a business plan. I believe I can do this with the designer in "collaboration". I want somone both practical and creative minded, whom isnt blinded and restricted by any useless text book protocols. But does follow useful text book protocols.

 

Hope that makes sense? I have spent perhaps too much time in higher education studying mindless protocols devised by clever acedemics in two differing careers. Less than 20% was useful. I hope web design courses are far better.

 

i agree about the cheapest option not being the best idea, it will depend on my budget.

 

If done in the correct way this could actually help the designer come up with something that is more suited to your business. Just make sure you listen to the designer and not try and do their job - chances are they will know considerably more about design that you do

We like to get as much information as possible from clients and this includes content and input on the kind of feeling or mood they want from their site. But at the same time it's hard for us to produce a website that converts if the client is pushing through ideas that we know will reduce conversion. It can be challenging to get a good balance.

There is also the issue of design vs quality of code / maintainability. some designs would require hugely complex code to achieve whereas a slightly different design that could convert and look just as good but with better, less hacky code. This is also a balancing act. If you add complexity there should be a good reason for it. complexity not only increases development time, but maintenance time, time required to set up AB tests and so forth, all of which cost money. The pixel perfect 'standard' was not good for writing maintainable CSS.

Edited January 3, 201511 yr by rbrtsmith

Disagree with you cornishninja, the best way for me to explain my idea is to supply as much details as possible about what I want inc sketches. If my designer provides somthing better - all well and good

 

I want to be involved with the design not just submit a business plan. I believe I can do this with the designer in "collaboration". I want somone both practical and creative minded, whom isnt blinded and restricted by any useless text book protocols. But does follow useful text book protocols.

 

Hope that makes sense? I have spent perhaps too much time in higher education studying mindless protocols devised by clever acedemics in two differing careers. Less than 20% was useful. I hope web design courses are far better.

 

 

i agree about the cheapest option not being the best idea, it will depend on my budget.

Getting involved with a design is ok to a point, for example, the concept, the general direction and even the message is immersive enough to satisfy most that their input has been attended to. However a client who starts saying "can you add this" or "would you just change that" is a nightmare because if you think you can do it yourself why did you hire a designer?

 

You talk about textbooks etc but in design there are very basically two sides of it..

 

1) the theory - this is really about how to send messages, to manipulate the image to become meaningful

2) the principles - these are the ground 'rules' if you like, the methods and techniques to enable you create 'nice' images.

 

At what point in these two examples and need for understanding do you think a client should interviene, what part of those does a client know of? Should they interfere with either of those without knowing what they are doing the message gets clouded or the design distorted.. Bad Bad Bad.

I finalised writing my Terms and Conditions today and in there I have added basically that all coding I put into a site is copyright to me (Basically so If I ever wanted to use the exact same style of Sidebar positioning and shadowing or something I can) I have stated when they sign off the website at completion the client will recieve a license agreement to do as they wish with it once its signed over, But I have full rights to use the same code again without duplicating their site.