Right,

 

I don't frequent this site too often because I'm not interested in doing freelance jobs for a budget of $100 or less. In fact if I am not earning £500 a week which is around $1000, then I'm not interested. Why? because why should I? I'm not a bedroom designer, I'm not a student. I like the rest of the real world have bills and essentials to buy. Most of my peers earn in excess of £250 a day! If I can, I do too. But it certainly doesn't happen from sites like this.

 

Personally I think it is a shame that such a good idea can be tainted by cheap people wanting cheap deals, and cowboys from certain nations who think that great code is done in tables only. So what do you get? You get someone who always says money is tight hence the budget is $100 - then you get somebody from a certain nation who is willing to do the job for $10 (and I have seen that offered here and on other such sites), so the vendor is like, ok that's great - I can get a cheap deal.

 

All this means is the web is not improving. You are getting poor quality products, which I doubt are accessible, are certainly not usable or SEO orientated. Basically you are not really going to benefit the business that you are selling.

 

It is the equivalent of going to Benidorm and buying some cheap mock perfume. Looks the same, is a damn site cheaper, but doesn't really offer the same experience as the real thing. But if this is how the web is going, cheap deals by cowboys, then I don't want no part of it.

 

But, remember the Picasso anecdote.

 

A young lady bumped into Picasso in Paris and was so amazed she said, "You have to paint my portrait", so he does. She is delighted, she says, "How much is it?", to which Picasso replied "$50,000". The lady shocked asked "why so much?, it only took you ten minutes", to which Picasso replied "My dear it has taken me my whole life".

 

So please think of the training, the skills we have acquired, the life experiences we have undertook to gain inspiration. $100 for a job is an insult to what we have done.

true... there are cowboys in every trade... especially this one

true... there are cowboys in every trade... especially this one

 

Well what can we do about it?

 

Tradesmen are notorious for cowboys, now many of them belong to a group, which basically ensures that we get what we pay for, which is quality.

 

Maybe the same thing should be applied to our industry. It may well already exist, but if it has I have not come across it.

Well that's one long introduction....ohh wait its not its a rant.

 

Right I think you miss understand the point of this forum for starts, its a place for designers and developers of all backgrounds be it advanced or just starting out to come to a common place and exchange ideas, get advice and develop their skills. Yes there is the odd looking to hire a designer for $100 and so what, you must have seen how most react to this offer on the site. Some will jump at the opportunity and say yes, those that are just starting out and are happy to get something for a job...ahh memories of my first paid job....everyone has to start somewhere.

 

We can't all be as lucky as you who has had the vast knowledge of x/html, css, seo, php, mysql, web standards, asp, graphic design, JavaScript and all other scripting languages in the world implanted in to your brain at birth. Some people have to start learning all that and have to get a start somewhere.

 

 

I do however agree about cowboy designers I don't like a few things about some 'designers' though:

1. People who charge a lot for their services when they download free templates and just edit the graphics slightly and changed the text to fit.
   
2. Those that don't know how to code at all and produce sites that don't validate yet they have charge a client a lot for the site.
   
3. People who call themselves web developers when they can't code to save their lives
   

More importantly I really dislike elitist designers who forget that once they were in the same boat as those that are just starting out and then bitch about bad designs....I'm sure even their first designs weren't perfect. I have never seen the point in this and its why I like this site as 98% of the members that do know what they are doing don't judge those that are just starting out and help them to become better designers and developers. Yes you can design well, but it could have taken you a few years to get to where you are, why do you have to look down on those that just want to get a foot in the door.

 

I'm not talking about designers that decide because they can code a basic site that they don't have to learn anything more and can charge for their services...I just get annoyed when people look down their noses as those wanting to learn and improve their skills.

 

 

Sorry if you start a rant you will get a rant back

Right,

 

I don't frequent this site too often because I'm not interested in doing freelance jobs for a budget of $100 or less.

 

I feel slightly insulted by your opening comment.

 

This site is a primarily a community/forum for discussion, not a marketplace.

 

Although the marketplace has it's place on the site.

I feel slightly insulted by your opening comment.

 

This site is a primarily a community/forum for discussion, not a marketplace.

 

Although the marketplace has it's place on the site.

 

Ben, sorry I'm not trying to insult you. I apologise if you feel like that.

 

I do think the site is good, has got great resource for beginners and experts alike. However, for me - I am interested in earning money by doing jobs for clients. I do that more than learning new skills because my learning curve has changed since I was a beginner as can be expected. So I'm just being honest.

It might be seen as being honest but insulting the forum and what it stands for by making accusations such as you have isn't at all right and insulting to all those that have helped build and mould this community. From your remarks you didn't know the first thing about this place and came off as an elitist designer who doesn't like beginners even trying, which in a way when I read that I felt sorry for you, being so negative about an industry that you are in.

 

 

Good luck in finding jobs, try cold calling and advertising your portfolio site...that will probably help a lot if you need to find some more clients.

Well that's one long introduction....ohh wait its not its a rant.

 

Right I think you miss understand the point of this forum for starts, its a place for designers and developers of all backgrounds be it advanced or just starting out to come to a common place and exchange ideas, get advice and develop their skills. Yes there is the odd looking to hire a designer for $100 and so what, you must have seen how most react to this offer on the site. Some will jump at the opportunity and say yes, those that are just starting out and are happy to get something for a job...ahh memories of my first paid job....everyone has to start somewhere.

 

We can't all be as lucky as you who has had the vast knowledge of x/html, css, seo, php, mysql, web standards, asp, graphic design, JavaScript and all other scripting languages in the world implanted in to your brain at birth. Some people have to start learning all that and have to get a start somewhere.

I do however agree about cowboy designers I don't like a few things about some 'designers' though:

1. People who charge a lot for their services when they download free templates and just edit the graphics slightly and changed the text to fit.
   
2. Those that don't know how to code at all and produce sites that don't validate yet they have charge a client a lot for the site.
   
3. People who call themselves web developers when they can't code to save their lives
   

More importantly I really dislike elitist designers who forget that once they were in the same boat as those that are just starting out and then bitch about bad designs....I'm sure even their first designs weren't perfect. I have never seen the point in this and its why I like this site as 98% of the members that do know what they are doing don't judge those that are just starting out and help them to become better designers and developers. Yes you can design well, but it could have taken you a few years to get to where you are, why do you have to look down on those that just want to get a foot in the door.

 

I'm not talking about designers that decide because they can code a basic site that they don't have to learn anything more and can charge for their services...I just get annoyed when people look down their noses as those wanting to learn and improve their skills.

Sorry if you start a rant you will get a rant back

 

Well I'd have expected a backlash to this. Maybe I put this in the wrong section.

 

Anyway, you seem to agree with some of my points. I was also not attacking this site per say, I was generalising on many freelance resources like this that seem to attract cowboys and those looking for cheap deals. Sitepoint is no different.

 

For the record I don't use templates, everything I create is from me and me only. Yes I am in it for the money, modern life demands that, but I'm also after creating a legacy that I can be proud of.

 

I'm also not looking down my nose at those wanting to learn. I just get annoyed when I have to compete with Indian's who charge $100 for their services, and people think that by going that way its a better deal. Funny that I get a lot of jobs fixing sites that have been outsourced to these agencies.

 

So no offence has been intended, I suppose I'm just lobbying for a more regulated industry. If your only after a blog or a personal site, then fine. But if its a professional job you want you really should be looking for a professional to do it. I mean who gets an inexperienced builder to build an extension on their house? Nobody, so why should it occur in this industry?

It might be seen as being honest but insulting the forum and what it stands for by making accusations such as you have isn't at all right and insulting to all those that have helped build and mould this community. From your remarks you didn't know the first thing about this place and came off as an elitist designer who doesn't like beginners even trying, which in a way when I read that I felt sorry for you, being so negative about an industry that you are in.

Good luck in finding jobs, try cold calling and advertising your portfolio site...that will probably help a lot if you need to find some more clients.

 

I actually do quite well. Again, I'm not just talking about this place!!! I'm talking about "looking to hire" forums, which this is, and others are. And they all attract what I have said, Cowboys and Cheap Vendors. I'm sorry if it has upset people, but it is the truth.

Ben, sorry I'm not trying to insult you. I apologise if you feel like that.

 

I do think the site is good, has got great resource for beginners and experts alike. However, for me - I am interested in earning money by doing jobs for clients. I do that more than learning new skills because my learning curve has changed since I was a beginner as can be expected. So I'm just being honest.

 

Apology accepted.

 

I think I understand your point. You've reach a stage where this forum perhaps isn't appropriate for you as you are interested in the 'business' of your work, rather than learning as you feel you've done this. With 7 years worth of experience, I can fully understand what you mean..however this can't apply to everyone. (I believe, I've just been looking at your portfolio site.)

 

Many people on this forum are still learning, and sharing experience - whether design, business or life orientated. Many are young and inexperienced. As we all were at one stage!

 

On to your 'cowboys' point - I couldn't agree more. I've spent a considerable amount of time, money (and some blood, sweat and tears) to feel at a point where I believe I was actually offering a confident service before I began to sell myself. (Actually, that sounds wrong.. )

 

I do occasionally find it irritating when a newbie comes asking really basic question - when they are working for paying client. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, questions - I have many, but surely you should learn the extreme basics of your trade before you try and sell yourself? (Not sure, if that's making total sense.)

 

Industry Regulation? Great idea, very difficult to implement with the entry barriers being so low.

 

On a sidenote - (hopefully, it is your portfolio site) - I love the colour and swirl you used in the 'wish' site.

Apology accepted.

 

I think I understand your point. You've reach a stage where this forum perhaps isn't appropriate for you as you are interested in the 'business' of your work, rather than learning as you feel you've done this. With 7 years worth of experience, I can fully understand what you mean..however this can't apply to everyone. (I believe, I've just been looking at your portfolio site.)

 

Many people on this forum are still learning, and sharing experience - whether design, business or life orientated. Many are young and inexperienced. As we all were at one stage!

 

On to your 'cowboys' point - I couldn't agree more. I've spent a considerable amount of time, money (and some blood, sweat and tears) to feel at a point where I believe I was actually offering a confident service before I began to sell myself. (Actually, that sounds wrong.. )

 

I do occasionally find it irritating when a newbie comes asking really basic question - when they are working for paying client. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against learning, questions - I have many, but surely you should learn the extreme basics of your trade before you try and sell yourself? (Not sure, if that's making total sense.)

 

Industry Regulation? Great idea, very difficult to implement with the entry barriers being so low.

 

On a sidenote - (hopefully, it is your portfolio site) - I love the colour and swirl you used in the 'wish' site.

 

 

Thanks Ben, I hope that I can actually contribute better to this forum in the future. The Wish Designs site is a site I built for a client, the logo wasn't created by me, but I had a hand in the direction. My portfolio site is www.nicktoye.co.uk, well its more my studio site now, it was a blog, but is more of product promotion then a blog.

 

I don't suppose there is much you can do with regulating "Looking to Hire" as its free to all. I suppose I should just learn to behave and not get too upset about it.

 

As for regulating the industry. I would say it was no more difficult then regulating the plumbing industry. There are organisations and some cowboys still, but better than it was.

Ahh this moves to quickly, original post is not relevant any more.

 

 

I just hope you won't tar us with the same brush as everyone else, we are here to help, enjoy your stay here

but surely you should learn the extreme basics of your trade before you try and sell yourself?

 

totally agree... i have nothing against people working for someone and getting a bit stuck... but surely if you are promoting yourself you need to actually be able to carry the task out...

Ahh this moves to quickly, original post is not relevant any more.

I just hope you won't tar us with the same brush as everyone else, we are here to help, enjoy your stay here

 

I've just PM'd you to ask for this to be reopened.... bloody hell it does move fast!

Thanks Ben, I hope that I can actually contribute better to this forum in the future.

 

I hope so as well, we need a balance of experience, creativity and passion for this forum.

 

You've certainly made an impact, so welcome!

I hope so as well, we need a balance of experience, creativity and passion for this forum.

 

You've certainly made an impact, so welcome!

 

 

Thanks for understanding. Its hard to convey what you really mean like this without causing some reaction.

Sorry we got off on the wrong foot, I just don't like it when things are stereotyped, esp when that opinion of this forum is totally wrong Passion and conviction is one thing, but jumping to conclusions without knowing is another.

 

 

Why not post a real intro to yourself....then we can all welcome you properly and start again on the right foot

Sorry we got off on the wrong foot, I just don't like it when things are stereotyped, esp when that opinion of this forum is totally wrong Passion and conviction is one thing, but jumping to conclusions without knowing is another.

Why not post a real intro to yourself....then we can all welcome you properly and start again on the right foot

 

Fair enough, but I was not attacking this forum. I was just saying that I don't frequent this site as often because of $100 contracts for 3 or 4 days work. I felt the same about sitepoint too.

 

So if I was guilty of stereotyping, it was aimed at a certain market and I felt that was justified. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't mean it. But as for this site I like the design, I love the emails I get.

 

My view was marred by the cheap cowboys, so I'm sorry for that and I will try and contribute more to the forum itself and stay away from the cowboys.

 

Intro time, ok, I'll have a think while the footy is on.

Fair enough, but I was not attacking this forum. I was just saying that I don't frequent this site as often because of $100 contracts for 3 or 4 days work. I felt the same about sitepoint too.

 

Fair enough, no-one can argue that's your opinion. Hopefully, you'll appreciate the forum and get to know the members more and appreciate the community feeling here.. and learn to ignore the low-budget jobbies.

Fair enough, no-one can argue that's your opinion. Hopefully, you'll appreciate the forum and get to know the members more and appreciate the community feeling here.. and learn to ignore the low-budget jobbies.

 

No problem.

yeah... we are all good now

call me a cowboy but that 100$ is helping me pay for gas every week. Everybody has to start somewhere. and btw im 16

call me a cowboy but that 100$ is helping me pay for gas every week. Everybody has to start somewhere. and btw im 16

 

Well at 16 would you say you were a professional? What training have you had? What is your level of experience? What is your portfolio like?

 

If your just starting out then $100 is fine. Most of my early work was for free.

 

My point is though when people want a professional job for $100, a site that is more than likely going to generate them more business for their organisation.

 

If what I do raises that person's profile and they earn $20,000 for the year on the back of that design/product - then is $100 a fair price? No it isn't.

 

Do you know what your optimum rate is?

No, I not even close to an professional. I have taught myself css and html from online tutorials. As for 100$ sites for older professional people that do this as a career, thats not right, but for younger people just learning the trade 100$ is a good price to get some sites into a portfolio. Believe me I know what you mean about sitepoint, all the indians always quoting about 50 to 100 dollars, thats not right. But believe me these forums nothing like that. And btw my homepage is www.boyleswebdesign.com . So I respect what your saying but just dont say that all people that do sites for 100$ are cowboys. As for some poeple earning 20 grand off 100 dollars work. its all supply and demand, its what keeps the economy going. Im sure its gonna be that way when im 30 and looking for web design jobs, we all just have to deal with it, but if you truly are good then the people are gonna find you.

I'd basically agree with Nick - about the cowboy undercut thing, not necessarily about the fact that this forum is responsible for it, but just in general.

It takes hard work and diligence to learn good design and error free coding etc. etc. and it's upsetting to get undercut by shoddy work - the type of work you try and steer yourself away from by learning stuff properly. And the fact that the client doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference.

No, I not even close to an professional. I have taught myself css and html from online tutorials. As for 100$ sites for older professional people that do this as a career, thats not right, but for younger people just learning the trade 100$ is a good price to get some sites into a portfolio. Believe me I know what you mean about sitepoint, all the indians always quoting about 50 to 100 dollars, thats not right. But believe me these forums nothing like that. And btw my homepage is www.boyleswebdesign.com . So I respect what your saying but just dont say that all people that do sites for 100$ are cowboys. As for some poeple earning 20 grand off 100 dollars work. its all supply and demand, its what keeps the economy going. Im sure its gonna be that way when im 30 and looking for web design jobs, we all just have to deal with it, but if you truly are good then the people are gonna find you.

 

Well you have hit the nail on the head. The cowboys are those who are doing professional jobs for $100, they are also using tables for layout, they are copying templates and passing them off as their own.

 

Young professionals just getting started are not cowboys, so don't think I am referring to you.

I'd basically agree with Nick - about the cowboy undercut thing, not necessarily about the fact that this forum is responsible for it, but just in general.

It takes hard work and diligence to learn good design and error free coding etc. etc. and it's upsetting to get undercut by shoddy work - the type of work you try and steer yourself away from by learning stuff properly. And the fact that the client doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference.

 

Yeah, in general was what I was aiming at. But highlighting the fact that I steered away from this site because I was seeing that sort of thing happening.

Hi Nick

 

Welcome....

 

You may be a professional web designer but I'd get someone else to do your PR for you

Well this is certainly todays hot topic!

 

Interesting comments and I can certainly appreciate everyones input.

 

Perhaps the "looking to Hire" section needs some rules or some fair guidelines that don't offer ridiculous prices that will just cause people to post multiple replies along the lines of "Hey why is that so cheap... etc" How does that help? It's certainly not constructive for both comments and also the outrageously low price your willing to hire someone for.

 

Same goes for the "templates for Sale" section. Putting in some fair guidelines will a) Stop pointless replies Reduce the amount of spam like posts c) Get some quality templates for sale.

 

You also have to ask the question, hey what if a beginner wants a stab at selling some templates to get some cash.... What's your views on this?... Should we want to even cater for this? Does it just contribute to what you have all been discussing? I'm all for helping people earn a little cash and improving their skills I certainly encourage it....but where do you draw the line?

 

Design is rather subjective..are we trying to eliminate poor designs..what's a poor design?

 

Anyhoo, it's just some of the questions you have to ask before placing guidelines, but I think some reasonable rules should be in force... Would like to hear your decent suggestions please then we can get some rules in place that everyone is happy with ... (or the majority... )

 

Regards

 

Well this is certainly todays hot topic!

 

Interesting comments and I can certainly appreciate everyones input.

 

Perhaps the "looking to Hire" section needs some rules or some fair guidelines that don't offer ridiculous prices that will just cause people to post multiple replies along the lines of "Hey why is that so cheap... etc" How does that help? It's certainly not constructive for both comments and also the outrageously low price your willing to hire someone for.

 

Same goes for the "templates for Sale" section. Putting in some fair guidelines will a) Stop pointless replies Reduce the amount of spam like posts c) Get some quality templates for sale.

 

You also have to ask the question, hey what if a beginner wants a stab at selling some templates to get some cash.... What's your views on this?... Should we want to even cater for this? Does it just contribute to what you have all been discussing? I'm all for helping people earn a little cash and improving their skills I certainly encourage it....but where do you draw the line?

 

Design is rather subjective..are we trying to eliminate poor designs..what's a poor design?

 

Anyhoo, it's just some of the questions you have to ask before placing guidelines, but I think some reasonable rules should be in force... Would like to hear your decent suggestions please then we can get some rules in place that everyone is happy with ... (or the majority... )

 

Regards

 

 

 

I think that people can ask whatever they like.

However, a page/post/resource which is highly visible to posters explaining that there's a difference between templates sold in bulk and unique designs. Putting things in perspective and illustrating that a low price for a unique layout would limit the designer to a couple of hours work which points to the fact it's impossible to do so without a loss for the designer.

I think that most people who ask for low price designs doesn't realise why some designs are cheap (non-unique templates) and why some are much more expencive (unique). Which is why we get this situation where the people asking for the design thinks the desginers are greedy for demanding so much while the designers thinks the person requesting the design is rude for offering such a low price.

So maybe a sticky in the forum section which hopefully posters will read. And then when they don't read it we can simply post a quick comment refering to that page. After that there'll be no further need for anyone to respond to that post unless they are interested in taking the job.

Thanks Ben

 

I think we should give everyone a chance (except spammers!)

 

There are people here who are clearly working to a very high standard and others who are at the beginning of their design journey....

 

This place has always been extremely friendly and certainly not elitist. Weak designs / techniques have always been met with friendly and constructive criticism...not scorn!

 

I think we should continue along this path.....hopefully.....

Hey guys, who here knows PR? I need a PR or an account handler to keep me in these diamond shoes.

 

Here's a suggestion, why don't you create a section that caters for low budget projects, aimed for students or those just starting out. And leave the Looking to Hire for the more senior professional members.

 

Obviously anyone can pitch for the work, but we can keep the low budget projects in the same place.

Like we have said already this site isn't geared towards getting jobs to people, if you want that look somewhere else, we are simply a community geared towards helping and developing and sharing ideas and not finding jobs for designers. So it seems pointless to start separating off something that is the smallest section of what this site is about

Like we have said already this site isn't geared towards getting jobs to people, if you want that look somewhere else, we are simply a community geared towards helping and developing and sharing ideas and not finding jobs for designers. So it seems pointless to start separating off something that is the smallest section of what this site is about

 

 

I get your point, Nick, really I do. But you are over-generalising a lot too. So you dislike one section of WDF. Wonderful. But there are 34 sections here and goodness knows how many topics, so not liking the "Looking to Hire" area doesn't make the entire forum bad (which is what you started off by saying).

 

FWIW, I don't ever read the "Actionscript" section because I don't feel it applies to me. Hardly a good reason to shun WDF entirely though.

 

Does outsourcing suck? Maybe a little bit, but just as you've been talking about your interpretation of a living wage, "those Indians" (lets generalise some more, shall we?) are doing the same. And all industries have cowboys, not just web design. Have you ever been on eBay? You will find cheap knockoffs of just about anything you can imagine, along with hundreds of thousands of people lining up to buy them. It's not unique to the web design industry and it's certain nowt to do with WDF.

 

I get your point, Nick, really I do. But you are over-generalising a lot too. So you dislike one section of WDF. Wonderful. But there are 34 sections here and goodness knows how many topics, so not liking the "Looking to Hire" area doesn't make the entire forum bad (which is what you started off by saying).

 

FWIW, I don't ever read the "Actionscript" section because I don't feel it applies to me. Hardly a good reason to shun WDF entirely though.

 

Does outsourcing suck? Maybe a little bit, but just as you've been talking about your interpretation of a living wage, "those Indians" (lets generalise some more, shall we?) are doing the same. And all industries have cowboys, not just web design. Have you ever been on eBay? You will find cheap knockoffs of just about anything you can imagine, along with hundreds of thousands of people lining up to buy them. It's not unique to the web design industry and it's certain nowt to do with WDF.

 

Ok, I need to clarify one more time. I am not having a go at the forum. I only came on here recently because I was looking for freelance contracts, same as going to sitepoint and others. I then said I don't come here often anymore because I felt the jobs were too cheap to take on.

 

I couldn't careless about what I don't care about. My goal is always to make money, to put food on the table, roof on my head, clothes on my back and to pay taxes. Then if there is anything left over maybe something nice. I'm not going to learn much here that I don't already know.

 

Once again, I am not attacking this site. I am attacking the situation that develops out of freelance job postings.

 

Of course there are cowboys in other industries, which brings me to my other point about regulating the industry so that everyone can get a fair deal. We get good contracts, the vendors get a good deal, and those who are not capable don't mess up the web some more.

Ok this is just going around in circles....so I'm going to close it.

 

 

If you disagree with me closing it Nick then you can PM or Email me and I might reopen it.

 

 

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