Hi All,

I am planning on doing the OpenClassrooms bachelors degree course and have been planning on doing the Front End Developer course, but looking further into it the Full Stack course is the same price... 

Looking at job advertisements I am yet to find one that states HTML, CSS and JS as the only coding languages needed and absolutely none are interested in anyone with no commercial experience, hence why I think having a degree in it will give me an edge. 

So one of my questions are if you were me would you go for the Full Stack course? 

Secondly did you encounter the same "commercial experience required" roadblock and if so how did you get past it to get employed? Should a good portfolio bypass the need for this or is there anything I could do when the time comes to negate this issue?

Thanks!

C4W

I'd say it depends on your knowledge to date. The html, css and js would be good and solid, but if you haven't much experience or are new to the industry I'd say full stack, exposure to all would give you a better understanding as to which areas you prefer. 

A lot of full stack courses will use JavaScript for the front and backend (Node).  A lot of full-stack jobs require a solid understanding of Node even if they are using another backend language like Scala because Node and NPM is used heavily for front-end build tools.

Also React is a very popular UI framework and you would in most cases want to render a React UI server side, which again requires a Node server.
Here at Sky Mobile we use a microservice architecture where our front-end is written in React and that is rendered server-side using a Node server.  This talks to various REST services that are written in Scala, although we are soon to be moving to GraphQL, and the GraphQL server would also be written in Node.

Doing front-end only does provide a lower barrier to entry, however it may be worthwhile doing a full-stack course if you are unsure of what areas you enjoy.

you don't need a "portfolio" to get a job.  You need to demonstrate the skillset that is required for the role as well as an ability to collaborate with others in an agile environment, most important is a desire to keep learning more.
A single project on Github can be enough for this for your first role.  I turned up to the interview for my first role with annotated code examples and walked them through what I'd done and why.

Edited November 12, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

Thanks to both of you! 

I definitely want to be doing front end work, I enjoy seeing the visual result of my work, and know I will enjoy turning ideas into websites once I can! I don't really have a massive understanding of what backend does EXACTLY, but I know it's behind the scenes stuff and whilst I fully plan on increasing my arsenal and learning it as well, I know I want to be mainly doing front end. 

It's the £300 monthly for each course thats making the dilemma, but on the open classrooms website they even say themselves the full stack course is a generalist course, and i would rather be a specialist than a generalist.

Then theres the dilemma of whether to actually pay for a course or continue with freecodecamp and upgrade to treehouse, I am having a kid soon after all, but the degree would be satisfying and give me an edge?

 

Can I ask another question, sorry! Please can you add one or two languages to this list if it was you and you were to add 2 back end languages to your arsenal what would they be?

HTML

CSS

JAVASCRIPT

? 

?

 

Really appreciated!

Slightly bias as my favourite two, SQL and PHP.

SQL simply because websites store a lot of data in there, knowing how to plan tables for efficiency and how to access, edit, add and delete rows etc. PHP as it a commonly used server side language, even if going front end all the way understanding some of their work will often smooth the joins between your areas when it all comes together.

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by BrowserBugs

In my opinion if you are more focused on the frontend then stick to HTML, CSS and JS.  Like I've said JS is becoming a very popular choice on the server side too.  If you plan to work at an agency knowing some PHP will be useful as many are using it. 
However if you want to move into building web applications something for larger tech firms then JS will suit you well as it's likely to be used on the server too.  Those using a microservice architecture will be using languages that are similar in nature to JS such as Scala or Go.  For now if you stuck with JS you won't have the overhead of having to learn PHP too.  The key to being a successful specialist is to learn enough about related areas to do your job well, but not dedicating so much time to them as to hinder your specialism.

I wouldn't worry about databases if you are sticking to the frontend, those who are should learn both SQL and NoSQL, both are useful depending on if the data is highly relational or not.  NoSQL works very well for loosely related data that is transmitted as JSON via a REST or GraphQL API.

Treehouse does not have to be $300/m. they have alternatives to their tech degree courses.  https://teamtreehouse.com/subscribe/plans?trial=yes
Alternatively take a look at frontend masters they have courses such as https://frontendmasters.com/courses/web-development-v2/ and https://frontendmasters.com/courses/javascript-basics/

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

1 hour ago, rbrtsmith said:

The key to being a successful specialist is to learn enough about related areas to do your job well, but not dedicating so much time to them as to hinder your specialism.

Totally agree, was just answering the question. Which two backend languages would you look into @rbrtsmith? 100% behind your specialist area, was just curious

18 minutes ago, BrowserBugs said:

Totally agree, was just answering the question. Which two backend languages would you look into @rbrtsmith? 100% behind your specialist area, was just curious

So I only really work in the front-end but that includes writing a server to render the app on the server rather than the client only (For perf and SEO reasons) and front-end build tools are also written in Node, with some bash commands in a package.json file.

Our backend services are in Scala and at Sainsbury's many were in Go too.  To be fair as a FED it's not so important to know the languages the services are written in, but I think it's important to have a reasonable understanding of how REST architecture works as that's how we communicate with the services from the front-end.  I learnt about this by building NodeJS REST servers and also some GraphQL as I think this is going to take off in a big way and perhaps given time largely replace REST.

I also think it's important for a FED to have some understanding of deployment (It's my weakest area and I'm working on improving it) . But I think to understand the CI/CD process and tools like Docker & Kubenetes along with a service like DigitalOcean/AWS is useful, along with how to configure something like Nginx.  At the most basic level you should be able to SSH into a server and run some basic commands.

As for languages I think knowing more can help you be a better developer as they will teach you.  I think it's more useful to know more if you are a back-end dev as you'll want to write certain services in languages that are best suited so you can switch as necessary, for front-end you'll always be using JavaScript and typically the services would be handled by backend engineers.

For the record I only know JavaScript and PHP.  If I was building a product that required another language for a service I'd outsource the development of it, or use an existing service like Auth0 for authentication for example.

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

Man when I see all these different names it intimidates the crap out of me!

Bearing in mind that I was the same when I learned I need to know at least 3 languages however until I learned that I am picking up html and css easily. 

 

Cant help but wonder and think, is making more languages rather than optimising existing ones not over complicating the process?

Don't be intimidated the goal should never be to learn everything, the more you learn the more technologies etc that you uncover.  I have a larger list of stuff I don't know now than when I started, I expect that to continue to grow, we have to be comfortable not knowing everything.

Large orgs hire large teams of developers and specialists and nobody is expected to cover all areas, a lot of what I have said won't be required for junior roles but the great thing is that as you learn more you can more into senior roles and earn a lot of money while working on fun projects.

I don't think having lots of languages is a problem, nobody is forcing anybody to learn them, much like spoken languages you learn what you need to use and maybe others for fun.  having more doesn't make the barrier to becoming a dev any more difficult.

Edited November 13, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

True, and ANOTHER question (god when will it end eh?!)

Like I said I am yet to come across a job advertisement that only lists html css and JS as the needed languages, or any that dont ask for commercial experience.

How did you get past this or did you find a junior role advertised?

19 minutes ago, Code4Wyatt said:

Like I said I am yet to come across a job advertisement that only lists html css and JS as the needed languages, or any that dont ask for commercial experience.

Most jobs I see advertised contradict themselves and throw in everything, for example toot like "must know html, js, css, php, sql, ssh, insert framework name here" etc, all that's missing is "would also be nice if you could shove a broom up your rear and so you can sweep whilst walking round the office". I still find the adverts hard after years in the industry, sort of have to decipher what the role and responsibilities are.

On 11/12/2018 at 8:18 AM, rbrtsmith said:

you don't need a "portfolio" to get a job.  You need to demonstrate the skillset that is required for the role as well as an ability to collaborate with others in an agile environment, most important is a desire to keep learning more.
A single project on Github can be enough for this for your first role.  I turned up to the interview for my first role with annotated code examples and walked them through what I'd done and why.

Exactly this, I got an optimisation contract showing them something they had never seen done the way I had with documented outcomes. For junior positions they want to see potential, good ones never hire their "finished" employee, they hire the one with the potential to go far.

2 hours ago, Code4Wyatt said:

True, and ANOTHER question (god when will it end eh?!)

Like I said I am yet to come across a job advertisement that only lists html css and JS as the needed languages, or any that dont ask for commercial experience.

How did you get past this or did you find a junior role advertised?

Many of the job listings like this will either be "nice to have" items, or the recruiter has put them in without knowing the role well enough. An interview will typically be with someone that knows the job well, usually another developer, and they won't expect a front-end developer to know mySQL or Java, for example.

1 hour ago, Jack said:

the recruiter has put them in without knowing the role well enough

🤔

13 hours ago, Jack said:

the recruiter has put them in without knowing the role well enough.

This happens all the time!  I largely ignore the list of things they want.  I'm more interested in their tech stack.  If they are using Angular for example then I am not interested, I want where I work to be using good testing practices etc - the interview is as much as you selling yourself as it as you figuring out if it's a place you'd like to work.  As you gain experience you can be more choosy.

You just need to offer value.  My first job wasn't advertised, I just saw an agency and liked what they were about and stood for.  So I just sent them an email asking if they were looking for work.
I just put my case forward that although I'm new I'm passionate about learning more and will add a load of value to their front-end.

For your first role it's just a matter of convincing them that you're gonna add value for money, if you are deficient in an area like commercial experience then show them how you might make up for that.  There is a lot of competition for junior roles though so you may have to apply at a lot of places.  I sent emails out to most of the agencies in the area, I was just very fortunate in that what I thought was the best one got back to me.  Didn't hear a peep from the others.

Edited November 14, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

I know I'd be much less willing to do this if the course I was doing didn't have a job guarantee, it sounds like if you get a job via self teaching its also via luck?

What would be an example of value that I could bring despite no commercial experience... extensive javascript knowledge?

No course you'd do would guarantee you a job.  you will still have to prove to an employer that you'd be an asset, what these course give you is the skillset required to ace a junior interview (the coding aspect) . You'll also have to be able to demonstrate ability to work well on a team and be a good fit.

I could interview a great coder but if they came across badly like they'd cause conflict in a team then I wouldn't want to hire them.

I'd hire somebody who had no commercial experience if they could demonstrate that they can add value, that's all I'd care about.  Experience is good to have but people can more than make up for a lack of it.  Do a dummy project improving an existing website showing how you added value to it - made it more performant, convert better etc.

Edited November 15, 20187 yr by rbrtsmith

Well its a money back guarantee if I dont get one in 6 months or less. Or so they say.

Here is a perfect example of one of the hair ripping out Front End job ads in Glasgow;

Junior Developer • PHP / MySQL • Glasgow • Perm - up to £ 22k Are you a talented programmer looking to forge a successful career in a company where you will be encouraged to learn and develop? Would you like to work on a varied and interesting workload? If this sounds like you, read on-

So I should learn 3 coding languages, plus two back end languages, just for the priviledge of working for the same salary as I am on now and not even really what a Junior FED should be making?  Do one.

This seems more like it;

 

Junior-Mid Front End Web Developer - eCom Leader | £27-33K Glasgow £27,000 - £33,000 + Excellent Benefits & Perks Package

Front End Web Developer Key Responsibilities • Contribute to the development of our e-commerce platform, with intuitive functionality for our online customers • Work closely with our internal teams to develop tools to improve the efficiency & effectiveness of our web operations • Contribute to key software development decisions within the company Front End Web Developer Essential Skills • Solid commercial web development experience • Computer science degree or similar • HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript JQuery, AJAX, ASP.NET Razor • Visual Studio • Develop responsive web pages for multiple browsers and devices • Independently test and debug web pages in the browser • Write good quality code which adheres to industry standards so as ensure the maintainability and reliability of the developed software • Take part in code reviews including using feedback received and providing feedback for others • Be comfortable working as part of a team and be able to demonstrate good communication skills • Have the ability to work independently and be capable of managing your own time Desirable Skills • Design skills • Sass • Development using Node, NPM and Webpack • Visual Studio Code • React and Redux • AngularJS • C# and object oriented programming

 

Plus the need to sift through all the fake job ads that are really for courses.

 

Nevertheless I am not dissuaded just trying to prep myself for a hopefully efficient entry into the job world in a year or so's time! Thanks as always

But in reality;

Junior Developer • PHP / MySQL • Glasgow • Perm - up to £ 22k
Are you a talented programmer who doesn't know they are a unicorn? Looking to be underappreciated, underpaid and the scapegoat in a company where you will be encouraged to work too many hours for the sake of "team spirit"? Would you like to work on a varied and interesting workload because we have no idea WTF is going on and can't make up our minds? If this sounds like you, read on-

So you'll see a lot of silly postings for roles, I understand the market in Glasgow won't be as strong as London/Manchester, When I started out I largely ignored these sorts of postings, but I've come to realise they they're often written by recruiters who haven't a clue what they are talking about.

I'm in talks about a possible principal engineer role, (not sure if they can offer me a good enough package to quit contracting but worth the conversation…) in the listing by the recruiter they basically want somebody with deep experience in the full-stack (JavaScript) different database types, extensive knowledge of deployment in the cloud etc etc.  I specialise in the front-end so I don't match that criteria, however that hasn't halted the conversation as I can push the value I can add to the front-end.

That second listing sounds more like a mid-level role to be honest.  That said many orgs will want front-end developers with experience in a framework like React or Angular with some automated testing experience.  The fact is that the software we are building is using all this stuff so if we hired somebody with only JS/HTML/CSS experience they wouldn't be able to contribute much at all. 

There is quite a lot to learn but that is the nature of the best, you're competing with others so these companies can be picky about who they let in.  You have to work hard to get your foot in the door.  That said once you reach a certain level it becomes easier to progress up - you learn more and you can apply for more senior positions.  When I started my first role I was getting paid equivalent to £16k, taking that role was still the best decision I ever made as it allowed me to learn and grow.

At a minimum I'd expect for a junior role at a large org like Sky, BBC etc

Git
HTML — (Understand accessibility and SEIO basics)
CSS+Sass — understand layout, selector specificity, doesn't make many code smells, Ability to create responsive layouts
JavaScript — understanding of fundamental principals, some ES6 knowledge, basic awareness of automated testing, built a basic app in at least one framework (React/Angular)

This is the minimum for somebody to be able to contribute, but even then they'd have a lot of learning on the job to do because the stuff we build can be quite complex and good tests and code quality are super important along with ability to collaborate  with others.

At an agency you are less likely to be required to learn a framework, most are still using jQuery, they are also unlikely to be using automated tests.  However pushing yourself to learn these things will allow you to earn far more.… . We're talking at least 1.5-2x what an average agency worker would earn.
 

You must start from frontend, will be easy for you.

58 minutes ago, mahisharma2 said:

You must start from frontend, will be easy for you.

Must?! easier doesn't necessarily mean better for them