Hey,

 

I have a question regarding client relationships. I have recently taken on a job through a word of mouth recommendation. The lady who contacted me was a little broad in what we wanted (she was starting a business, needed a logo and website).. I asked a couple of questions about the project and didn't really get much back, however, not wanting to risk any other recommendations or destroying the relationship with my existing client I decided to take it.

 

After answering a lot... A LOT of emails and phone calls (i'm talking hours of wasted time) I still don't know much about her business to really deliver what she wants.

 

All i know is she likes two colours, and wants to start a business in a specific sector.

 

Anyway, trying to move forward I knocked up some mockups of logos, nothing solid, I just wanted to try and get her juices flowing, I sent 5 logos which took me a few hours to make, she replied 'they're all basic and black, i don't like any of them' .. I stressed that they are just mockups and I am basically shooting in the dark since I don't have any indication of what direction her business is going in or what type of image she wants to portray.

 

I asked for more information and she said she needs to see what she is working with before she can put stuff together... my argument is I need to see something before I can truly design what she wants.

 

So now to my question: How much thinking do you do for your client? She clearly has no brief or plan and is expecting me to come up with everything for her, would YOU keep churning out work until YOU got it right?

I've always worked under the notion that it's a designer/developer job to bring an IDEA to life, but not actually sit coming up with ideas for people who don't really know what they want? What do you think? Who is in the wrong? Is this project dead in the water?

In a nutshell I'd say the client is in the wrong. In your situation I'd have recommended that she do some research into her business idea and then come back to you when she has a concrete plan. Like an investor if I were freelancing I also wouldn't take on projects for a business / business idea or an entrepreneur that I don't believe in.

 

I think this is one of those where there's no business idea, the client doesn't seem to have a clue. I'd cut your losses and walk away.

Edited October 14, 201510 yr by rbrtsmith

Mate sounds like a nightmare, I used to suffer this all the time, 1 client took 14 months from quote to delivery because they dragged their heels. I did come up with a basic 2 rule list.

1. If it's an online shop then I ask for an excel or similar of products by category, brand and the like plus sample photos, shipping company + calculations etc.
2. If it's a general website I ask for photos and content.

If either of these two are not met I don't lift a mouse or even bother taking a deposit. If the client cannot produce this or request help with it (to be charged) then I simply won't start. Since using this approach I work less but finish more projects and get paid more, I spend the rest of my time working on my own pet projects.

So now to my question: How much thinking do you do for your client? She clearly has no brief or plan and is expecting me to come up with everything for her, would YOU keep churning out work until YOU got it right?

I've always worked under the notion that it's a designer/developer job to bring an IDEA to life, but not actually sit coming up with ideas for people who don't really know what they want? What do you think? Who is in the wrong? Is this project dead in the water?

 

To answer this I do a lot of thinking for clients, especially the SEO and technical specification as I've never had a client who grasps this. Clients 90% of the time (ish) think getting a website is like buying a car, you pay your price and get #1 in Google ... but in this projects case I would burn it.

In a nutshell I'd say the client is in the wrong. In your situation I'd have recommended that she do some research into her business idea and then come back to you when she has a concrete plan. Like an investor if I were freelancing I also wouldn't take on projects for a business / business idea or an entrepreneur that I don't believe in.

 

I think this is one of those where there's no business idea, the client doesn't seem to have a clue. I'd cut your losses and walk away.

 

Thanks, She has came back to me with some examples, I'll come up with something based on them, if she's not happy i'll be telling her to come back when she actually has an idea. I know what you mean about entrepreneurs... I have a few clients who like to think of themselves as entrepreneurs and are constantly coming up with crazy ideas that I don't believe in, yet they expect to be able to shoot over a half assed email and have a fully functional business website sent straight back to them.

 

Mate sounds like a nightmare, I used to suffer this all the time, 1 client took 14 months from quote to delivery because they dragged their heels. I did come up with a basic 2 rule list.

1. If it's an online shop then I ask for an excel or similar of products by category, brand and the like plus sample photos, shipping company + calculations etc.
2. If it's a general website I ask for photos and content.

If either of these two are not met I don't lift a mouse or even bother taking a deposit. If the client cannot produce this or request help with it (to be charged) then I simply won't start. Since using this approach I work less but finish more projects and get paid more, I spend the rest of my time working on my own pet projects.

 

Thats not a bad approach to take, i may adopt that.. I definitely need to come up with some screening process because it happens all too often, I would normally be a little more resistant but with this one being a recommendation of an existing client I'll need to give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

To answer this I do a lot of thinking for clients, especially the SEO and technical specification as I've never had a client who grasps this. Clients 90% of the time (ish) think getting a website is like buying a car, you pay your price and get #1 in Google ... but in this projects case I would burn it.

 

This is my biggest issue with web design.. finishing a website and then client complaining because they aren't #1 on Google and making millions in like a day, I have just finished a site for a client who is complaining about the exact same thing, after less than a month she didn't get any leads, her site had barely even been indexed by Google and she done no promotion what so ever but still expected the leads to role in.

This is also why I don't freelance. Dealing with these kind of people would drive me up the wall.

This is my biggest issue with web design.. finishing a website and then client complaining because they aren't #1 on Google and making millions in like a day, I have just finished a site for a client who is complaining about the exact same thing, after less than a month she didn't get any leads, her site had barely even been indexed by Google and she done no promotion what so ever but still expected the leads to role in.

 

It's unbelievable how deluded people (clients) really are, "£xxxx's that's too expensive....", "I was expecting to pay pennies, for a #1 ranking behemoth of a site, that should have been ready yesterday, even though I gave you the specs 5 mins ago".

 

Maybe it's the ignorance of not knowing what's actually involved in developing a masterpiece, the time learning the skills, the time taken applying the skills to their ideas, not to mention making sure that it displays and functions correctly in IE, Chrome, FF and Safari you've also got to make sure it performs well on both mobile and tablets.

 

It's a sad world...

Edited October 14, 201510 yr by richardmountain

 

This is my biggest issue with web design.. finishing a website and then client complaining because they aren't #1 on Google and making millions in like a day, I have just finished a site for a client who is complaining about the exact same thing, after less than a month she didn't get any leads, her site had barely even been indexed by Google and she done no promotion what so ever but still expected the leads to role in.

 

Ideal clients are the ones who might not have a lot of money right now but quality of their business or service would be easy to 'sell' online. It's the person who says 'yeah, well I make cakes' on the phone and sends something that looks like it's off the cover of a wedding magazine. These clients are the building block of any great website and solid agency. If the clients service is poor then no amount of jquery magic can remedy this, but if they offer something truly great then ranking them is a lot easier.

 

Within 2 years I can guarantee they will be back for a refit, with a 'budget irrelevant' hunger as they have reaped the rewards from their first site. I know this works, I've just finished v 4 for a client

 

I was told back in 2001 by a seasoned developer that you will make a few quid designing websites, however the real money is in OWNING the website. He gave me this inspiration, to look at all small businesses as a potential revenue stream not a one trick pony. The alternative to making money now is spotting an idea which within a few years could really make some wedge, a service or product you actually believe in. By coming in at the ground level you will snap your own share of the pie, and the best bit is as 'chief dev dude' you say what's going to be done, and the faster you make the site, the more work you do the more money the website makes thus lining your pockets even more. However watch out for lame ducks, really thrash out any ideas as it's better to kill the idea today than in 6 months time.

So now to my question: How much thinking do you do for your client? She clearly has no brief or plan and is expecting me to come up with everything for her, would YOU keep churning out work until YOU got it right?

I've always worked under the notion that it's a designer/developer job to bring an IDEA to life, but not actually sit coming up with ideas for people who don't really know what they want? What do you think? Who is in the wrong? Is this project dead in the water?

 

Personally, I think you created a bit of a rod for your own back by starting design work with no clear direction in place. As soon as you do that, then you're opening yourself up to doing a lot of unnecessary work in revisions. I think most people tend to have an image in mind, but a lot struggle to articulate it. Therefore my starting point is always to do as much discovery work as possible. Put a LOT of questions to the client so that you fully understand not just the design brief, but the business itself. Get examples of styles that the client likes etc. That way, you're not shooting in the dark.

 

That said, I don't think that I could personally walk away from a project knowing that the client wasn't satisfied. But that's why I think the discovery process is so important.

 

I was told back in 2001 by a seasoned developer that you will make a few quid designing websites, however the real money is in OWNING the website. He gave me this inspiration, to look at all small businesses as a potential revenue stream not a one trick pony. The alternative to making money now is spotting an idea which within a few years could really make some wedge, a service or product you actually believe in. By coming in at the ground level you will snap your own share of the pie, and the best bit is as 'chief dev dude' you say what's going to be done, and the faster you make the site, the more work you do the more money the website makes thus lining your pockets even more. However watch out for lame ducks, really thrash out any ideas as it's better to kill the idea today than in 6 months time.

 

Does that mean you take an equity stake as part payment? I definitely agree that the real money is getting a regular income from clients.

I have been through this exact situation so many times in the past and 30% of the time I had to let the client go, it's just not worth the hassle. Now I make sure to have a full proposal listing what we will do and what we expect the client to do. We even have it in our terms and conditions that if the content is not supplied as per the schedule we will apply a charge.

 

The main thing to come away from all this is that never start a project unless you have all the content in place.

 

Does that mean you take an equity stake as part payment? I definitely agree that the real money is getting a regular income from clients.

 

@@LimeGreenMatt Yep, it means you own a % which if they want back they would have to buy from you. The regular money comes from company profit, but by owning a share you have more say on 'the way forward' for the web area of the business rather than having to meet a clients unrealistic requests.

Don't forget however that by owning a percentage of a business you share not only the profits but also the debts.

 

So if it all goes wrong and the business cashes owing huge sums to the Revenue, banks and suppliers the shaven headed bailiffs and the Channel 5 camera crew will be in your house merrily carting your life out of the door for auction.

 

Always check out anyone you consider going into business with thoroughly.

I have been through this exact situation so many times in the past and 30% of the time I had to let the client go, it's just not worth the hassle. Now I make sure to have a full proposal listing what we will do and what we expect the client to do. We even have it in our terms and conditions that if the content is not supplied as per the schedule we will apply a charge.

 

The main thing to come away from all this is that never start a project unless you have all the content in place.

 

We're starting to enforce that we don't touch design until we have the research done, and the content provided. Too many projects drag on as a result on waiting for content, and to be honest, designing without content is pretty useless. It almost always causes an issue when you come to add in the content for the pages because it lacks structure. I also think putting the design aside enables clients to think about the bigger picture and the goals you're trying to solve, they tend to evaluate the content they are writing more, rather than trying to base content around the template you sent through.

 

So far this has been the best approach for us. We're using GatherContent so that we can export the content directly into the CMS after, and it gives us things like workflow tools and an action calendar so that the clients know when content is expected from them.

The content is the most important aspect of the site. The site should be designed around the content, not the content cut, carved and hammered into the design.

Hey,

 

I have a question regarding client relationships. I have recently taken on a job through a word of mouth recommendation. The lady who contacted me was a little broad in what we wanted (she was starting a business, needed a logo and website).. I asked a couple of questions about the project and didn't really get much back, however, not wanting to risk any other recommendations or destroying the relationship with my existing client I decided to take it.

 

After answering a lot... A LOT of emails and phone calls (i'm talking hours of wasted time) I still don't know much about her business to really deliver what she wants.

 

All i know is she likes two colours, and wants to start a business in a specific sector.

 

Anyway, trying to move forward I knocked up some mockups of logos, nothing solid, I just wanted to try and get her juices flowing, I sent 5 logos which took me a few hours to make, she replied 'they're all basic and black, i don't like any of them' .. I stressed that they are just mockups and I am basically shooting in the dark since I don't have any indication of what direction her business is going in or what type of image she wants to portray.

 

I asked for more information and she said she needs to see what she is working with before she can put stuff together... my argument is I need to see something before I can truly design what she wants.

 

So now to my question: How much thinking do you do for your client? She clearly has no brief or plan and is expecting me to come up with everything for her, would YOU keep churning out work until YOU got it right?

I've always worked under the notion that it's a designer/developer job to bring an IDEA to life, but not actually sit coming up with ideas for people who don't really know what they want? What do you think? Who is in the wrong? Is this project dead in the water?

 

How can you create logos if you know nothing about the business? It is partly your fault because you need to make it clear from the beginning that building a website requires dedication from both the client and designer/developer, they need to be just as committed as you. I would however say that you are not helping the situation by ignoring essential issues, like important information needed about their business.

 

The relationship between a client and a web designer/developer is fragile enough without the basics being skipped for the sake of allowing a customer to think that only very basic information is needed to do a proper job. I refuse work from any client who thinks this is how we work and refuse to commit just as much to it as I.