Hi everyone,

 

About to start the second year of my computer science degree. One of the optional modules is on CMS and it looks like I would be designing and building a custom CMS from scratch.

 

In terms of business, has anyone built one for a customer before and if so what would be the price range that a customer would pay? I am asking as I will be going into business next year some time and was a little curious.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

 

Stevo!

any help at all from you fine folks?? :)

It would have to be really, really good and backed with kick-ass 24/7 support before you could charge anything more than zero.

 

Why? Joomla, Drupal, Wordpress.

thanks, I already know that though, and you haven't even answered my question. I'll assume (for the moment) that you have not built one from scratch for a client then.

 

And some companies actually don't want Wordpress or the like. It can be super beneficial to have custom code as its nice and lightweight ( only containing the code it needs to do the job).

 

I don't believe it would need 24/7 support either. As the code is customer it will be easier to create detailed documentation for the user which can be backed up with business hours support (at an extra charge).

 

Can anyone else answer my actual question please?

Uhmm, no-one does this because of the huge variety of CMS' already available.

 

Clients don't want to be tied a single developer when they could go for any one of hundreds of existing, actively developed, (typically) open source solutions.

 

You only have to look at the number of successful, paid CMS' to know this is not a viable option or one that would be worth your pursuing.

 

And some companies actually don't want Wordpress or the like.

Agreed. Those companies can choose from any of the 1000's of existing CMS solutions to find one that fits their requirements.

 

It can be super beneficial to have custom code as its nice and lightweight ( only containing the code it needs to do the job).

Sure, but this can also be done with an existing open source CMS.

 

If you want to re-invent the wheel, go ahead. I just think you are being extremely naive to think that anyone will pay you for it.

Edited September 2, 201213 yr by MikeChipshop

Sucessful paid CMS' - off the top of my head I can only think of ExpressionEngine and Perch. One's by EllisLabs (creators of CodeIgniter) and the other's by Rachel Andrew and Drew McLellan.

Agreed. Those companies can choose from any of the 1000's of existing CMS solutions to find one that fits their requirements.

 

Sure, but this can also be done with an existing open source CMS.

 

If you want to re-invent the wheel, go ahead. I just think you are being extremely naive to think that anyone will pay you for it.

 

Thanks for your comments, it is actually good to hear someone's thoughts on this topic. To be fair, I never said I would be looking for anyone to pay me for it, I was just being uber curious. Something to think about is, if you never go back to the basics of how something is made / designed, then how can you ever take a leap forward. If everyone decided to just go with what is already out there, then technology (hardware and software) would be pretty stale. Sure at the end of my course I may decide that the current solutions are the best option, though sometimes the best and easiest can be confused.

 

I'll maybe keep updating this as I make progress. Thanks again for your comments though.

 

Stevo!

Sucessful paid CMS' - off the top of my head I can only think of ExpressionEngine and Perch. One's by EllisLabs (creators of CodeIgniter) and the other's by Rachel Andrew and Drew McLellan.

 

Agreed, both awesome. Crucially, both have an active developer community, so any client choosing one will know that they can always find a developer who can work with it.

 

Something to think about is, if you never go back to the basics of how something is made / designed, then how can you ever take a leap forward. If everyone decided to just go with what is already out there, then technology (hardware and software) would be pretty stale.

I never said it wouldn't be awesome. The reality is that CMS' are not chosen on the quality of their code. The other sad fact is that the wide availability of open source solutions means that clients pay for experienced developers, not CMS software.

 

It would be a great learning experience for sure.

 

You might want to take a look at Anchor CMS for an example of awsome, lightweight CMS

Edited September 2, 201213 yr by MikeChipshop

I never said it wouldn't be awesome. The reality is that CMS' are not chosen on the quality of their code. The other sad fact is that the wide availability of open source solutions means that clients pay for experienced developers, not CMS software.

 

It would be a great learning experience for sure.

 

You might want to take a look at Anchor CMS for an example of awsome, lightweight CMS

 

It could be a disaster hahaha! Who knows, while doing it I may come up with a great idea for a product that may not even be CMS based. When working on projects my mind tends to going into overdrive with ideas. Your right the learning experience is going to be pretty awesome. I've already done a basic CMS page to understand the PHP structure.

 

Thanks for the link name, I'll need to take a look at it.

 

 

Stevo!

However, when you think of the bigger picture - the customer who has to learn these huge complicated admin areas, aimed at designers/developers - open source CMS's fall down for me.

If this is the case you clearly are not customising the admin to your clients requirements. If it is the case that your client only needs to write 1 blog post a month, for example, then you could have only one button in the admin area; "Write a new blog post!".

 

I currently have roughly 20 clients who pay me a small fee each month to update their websites as they find it too hard.

If you are updating their sites why bother with a CMS at all? Simply build a static site and update that. I use a CMS precisely so that I do not have to update or maintain a clients site. I want to build it and then hand them the keys. I think most businesses prefer to have control of their own site like this.

I guess it comes down to the type of client you're dealing with, but for me - lots of small to medium sized businesses - my own custom CMS base works a lot better than anything opensource I've tried.

And this works really well until you, heavens forbid, get hit by a bus. What has your client got then? They have no way to update their site and it is impossible to hire a developer who knows how to work with your proprietary CMS. At that point, every penny they paid is money down the toilet for that business and a valuable, if hard, lesson on the perils of vendor lock-in. There is a reason that open source CMS' are very popular with businesses, this is it.

If this is the case you clearly are not customising the admin to your clients requirements. If it is the case that your client only needs to write 1 blog post a month, for example, then you could have only one button in the admin area; "Write a new blog post!".

 

 

If you are updating their sites why bother with a CMS at all? Simply build a static site and update that. I use a CMS precisely so that I do not have to update or maintain a clients site. I want to build it and then hand them the keys. I think most businesses prefer to have control of their own site like this.

 

And this works really well until you, heavens forbid, get hit by a bus. What has your client got then? They have no way to update their site and it is impossible to hire a developer who knows how to work with your proprietary CMS. At that point, every penny they paid is money down the toilet for that business and a valuable, if hard, lesson on the perils of vendor lock-in. There is a reason that open source CMS' are very popular with businesses, this is it.

 

He did say that he writes it so that another developer can understand it. The fact is, if you write any code in a structured manner, comment it and produce documentation then someone else should be able to keep it going.

 

I see that you specialise in Joomla, which is great and I'm sure your clients are quite happy. However rather than shooting down every comment that hints at using something that is not open source (ie Joomla), attempt not just see problems. I'm not trying to be an idiot, just trying to say, that it seems like because of what you specialise in, that no one can be a little right about the non open source solution.

If you're at University, then your own CMS platform from scratch would make a great example to show in an interview. As op[posed to a piece of paper, it demonstrates, practiclly that you have the skill to think outside the box and write soemthing from scratch.

 

Thanks for that, it was what I was thinking. I'm never one to just use something, I like to know how its built from scratch and what I can do better! Makes me a pain sometimes though!

 

Thank you for the comment above, it's good to know that I am not thinking complete nonsense! My thought was, with a custom built CMS, it will do exactly what the client needs it for and no more, and hopefully be simple for them to use. I suppose some clients may like a custom built one, as it has an exclusive feel about it for them ( have to feed some ego's!). I'm doing Systems Design and Analysis too, so I'll be creating documentation at every stage for the CMS. One for the technical minded people, and a user friendly one that explains it in usable terms.

 

I think I will keep this post running and update any progress in the event anyone is interested.

 

Thanks again! Oh, I don't want to know your prices, but would you be able to tell me a rough price range that someone may pay for a custom CMS? :)

 

 

Stevo!

However rather than shooting down every comment that hints at using something that is not open source (ie Joomla), attempt not just see problems. I'm not trying to be an idiot, just trying to say, that it seems like because of what you specialise in, that no one can be a little right about the non open source solution.

Did you see me equate Joomla and Open Source anywhere? Or shoot down non-Joomla solutions? C'mon you're being silly now, I've done nothing of the sort.

 

It's true I, like the world in general, prefer open-source CMSs. Like I said, there's many very good reasons why Open Source dominates in this arena, I only pointed to a couple of them. Hell you don't have to take my word for it, the W3C keeps pretty good track of these things: http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/content_management/all

 

If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the realities of the current state of play in the CMS world, be my guest. I stand by my original conviction that you cannot seriously expect anyone to pay a single penny for a custom-built CMS, but feel free to try and prove me wrong.

The company I work for use this developers who have built their own CMS.

 

http://www.eonic.co.uk

 

Its for a very complicated system that uses a lot of permissions, secure logins that shows different content for each user and a number of other factors that the generic systems couldn't do! They seem to be able to charge quite well for it!

The company I work for use this developers who have built their own CMS.

 

http://www.eonic.co.uk

 

Its for a very complicated system that uses a lot of permissions, secure logins that shows different content for each user and a number of other factors that the generic systems couldn't do! They seem to be able to charge quite well for it!

 

Your boss must have his head buried in the same sand as me!

 

Checked out the companies site, pretty cool sounding and a quality portfolio! Your right, the open source one's will have their limitations.

 

Stevo! :0

Did you see me equate Joomla and Open Source anywhere? Or shoot down non-Joomla solutions? C'mon you're being silly now, I've done nothing of the sort.

 

It's true I, like the world in general, prefer open-source CMSs. Like I said, there's many very good reasons why Open Source dominates in this arena, I only pointed to a couple of them. Hell you don't have to take my word for it, the W3C keeps pretty good track of these things: http://w3techs.com/t..._management/all

 

If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the realities of the current state of play in the CMS world, be my guest. I stand by my original conviction that you cannot seriously expect anyone to pay a single penny for a custom-built CMS, but feel free to try and prove me wrong.

 

haha well yeah you can bump all the stats you want in my face ,as I never said that the open source solutions were not good or popular. My point is that there will be, and is, clients who will want something very specific that the open source cannot provide. Neil@creative has just showed you that people are willing to pay, if you look at their website, they are companies needing complicated solutions as well as simple one's too.

 

I stand by my conviction sir.

 

 

Stevo!

Quote a weird, all encompassign statement that I know for a fact that two companies how appear when you search for "web design" and "website designers" both use a bespoke CMS system for their projects. Their portfolios show some pretty big clients, all who, er, paid money for them.

They pay for the CMS, or they pay for a website built on a CMS? I'm pretty sure it'l be the latter. I'd love to know about any other reputable, secure, successful and professional CMS' that are good enough to stand on their own as a piece of paid software. There are two that I know of Expression Engine and Perch.

 

The beauty of working with a well known CMS with a large community? Clients don't have to ask me how to do something, they can ask Google That's worth its weight in gold to me and my clients. They aren't tied to me and I am not tied to them; priceless.

Its for a very complicated system that uses a lot of permissions, secure logins that shows different content for each user and a number of other factors that the generic systems couldn't do! They seem to be able to charge quite well for it!

No offence, but this is just total rubbish. Secure logins and granular permissions is hardly complicated and well within the reach of any half-decent CMS.

 

...As for, say Worpdress being my first choice when I develop a site, I'd have to say no.

On this we can agree

Edited September 2, 201213 yr by MikeChipshop

... and asking a client to Google something looks really professional I wouldn't dare ask some of my clients to simply "go ask Google". That sounds awful tbh imo.

Who said anything about asking a client to Google something? You might want to re-read my post, you seem to have misunderstood some things.

 

My situation is exactly the same, my client pay for the site, not the CMS. I'd hardly call it a piece of paid software either (not sure how you've drawn that conclusion tbh ..) or anything in comparision to Expression Engine in the least lol. It's a simple skeleton if you like, for any web project I start on, as opposed to a full blown solution like Expression Engine. I never said it was anything like this all.

Right...

 

But the OP was asking about what he could expect to charge for a custom-built CMS. My answer, to him, was zero.

 

I'm not saying such software has no value, or isn't any good. But, the fact that the web is littered with CMS' from huge vendors, developed at massive expense, and for which no-one will pay serves as a good example of this.

 

There is a huge difference between saying "Hey, we have our own awesome CMS we can build your website with" and "We made an awesome CMS, you can buy it for $$$".

No offence, but this is just total rubbish. Secure logins and granular permissions is hardly complicated and well within the reach of any half-decent CMS.

 

I'm certainly no expert in this area, but I am curious to why the company I work for pay's so much money for this service.

 

Are you saying that generic CMS like Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal etc can perform task like this:

 

Say for example you can login to the admin site and setup a system that will only allow people from a certain company to login and get specific information relevant to them. Then they can take exam questions and there results will be recorded. However some pages and exams have a expiry date.

 

Then on top of this allow the client to add their own pages to anywhere within the site, and allow them to choose from up to 50 templates. On each of these templates they can then add modules to input a variety of content into different areas of the page, whether it be ecommerce, text, images, videos etc?

I'm certainly no expert in this area, but I am curious to why the company I work for pay's so much money for this service.

I see their CMS is a .NET job. If .NET is a requirement then maybe there isn't a capable FOSS solution currently. FOSS solutions tend to be built on FOSS platforms

Are you saying that generic CMS like Wordpress, Joomla, Drupal etc can perform task like this..

I don't know about Wordpress, but I am guessing not as it wasn't intended as a full-blown CMS. By the time you have made Wordpress do all that it isn't Wordpress any longer. Joomla and Drupal, sure, of course.

I'm going to wade in here. When I was freelance if a client wanted a CMS system then I would offer them my own in-house system. Which I charged around £800 for. I didnt offer any Open Source CMS system or any other system. My system is just a bare minimum CMS system, its got a navigation manager, file upload/download system, content editing, tagging, versioning, etc. pretty basic but works really well. Its modular so I would usually offer the base system and code custom components on it. I charged £35/hour for component development and I host the platform, charing £17.50 a month.

 

I dont offer the CMS system any more because I dont work freelance anymore. I'm working on a new project at the moment that uses Solr + PHP which will eventually be an open source CMS system

I see their CMS is a .NET job. If .NET is a requirement then maybe there isn't a capable FOSS solution currently. FOSS solutions tend to be built on FOSS platforms

 

I don't know about Wordpress, but I am guessing not as it wasn't intended as a full-blown CMS. By the time you have made Wordpress do all that it isn't Wordpress any longer. Joomla and Drupal, sure, of course.

 

 

Very enlightening. Thanks for the info!