Hi everyone,

 

as i am just starting out, i am looking for business, and was wondering if anyone has experience of Elance. i stumbled upon it a couple of days ago. I quite like the idea of all of the work listed there, but i can see people with much better portfolios or people that are willing to undercut me by hundreds of dollar, so i thought i'd get some opinions.

 

Reaper

The problem with websites like that is that there are many individuals from places like Kenya and India who may seem skilled, and will undercut you by a hell of a lot, but then the website they produce isn't very good, so people are mainly weary of individuals like that.

 

Personally, I'm on that website: Elance Profile. To be honest buddy, anything that you can do for work is worth it.

I've been considering using Elance but like you have mentioned there are people who are willing to work for a lot less than it is possible for me to work for.

 

When you're starting out the problem is you dont have much work in your portfolio to persuade people to use you.

 

The best bet is to offer to do work for people in you're local area. Then, if you're good at it, people will find out about you through word of mouth.

Ive been taking another look at it, and was wondering. It lists a service price as a percentage, am i right in thinking they take this percentage out of any earnings i get?

 

Reaper

No no no no no!

Elance is basically spec work, you all compete like spanners for a contract. This kind of thing will destroy design as a profession. Avoid. Do good work, speak to the right people, you'll get there in the end.

No no no no no!

Elance is basically spec work, you all compete like spanners for a contract. This kind of thing will destroy design as a profession. Avoid. Do good work, speak to the right people, you'll get there in the end.

 

I gave it a look, and that's basically the conclusion I came too.

 

A lot of buyers seem to expect a fully functional website for a budget of $250-$500, and logo design for $25, with Elance fees to come out of that. Their expectations seem to be quite unrealistic, but when they are getting 60+ bids coming in, why would they think anything else?

 

I have seen it mentioned on a couple of forums that it is getting a reputation for the cut-price place to go, and also as a place to get a few ideas on spec. without ever awarding the project.

 

Looking on the Elance forum, there seems to be the feeling among a lot of users that it used to be good a while ago. No doubt it was, it's not a fundamentally bad idea if people use it sensibly. Now there are a lot of complaints about it being largely populated with cheap-skates and low bidders.

 

No doubt there are buyers using it honestly, with the best intentions, a good understanding of how much good design will cost, and a desire for value for money rather than cheap, but trying to find them in the crowd might be tricky. Will they find you in the crowd of low-ball bidders - that's another matter!

This is always a problem for any industry with almost zero barriers to entry. As an 'outsider' it's so obvious to me who I could trust to build a quality design, why it would cost more and why it's a false economy to go for the cheap and nasty option. But, with so many designers willing to undercut by so much - even what I think is a fair price is probably lower than the actual value. In any market, when competition is high and overheads low, prices are driven down.

The elance kind of sites are terrible for your profession but, when people are struggling to find design work, they're not going to worry about your industry as a whole or the long-term consequences - they'll want money now.

These kind of sites exist in my world too - where people expect a 2-page article that's fully researched, SEO'd, engaging and sells for say £10 or even for free just for the 'SEO' - never mind that it might take several hours to write. I just don't do it.

What all of us have to do is ensure we educate potential clients and focus on what value our skills give clients - I know that what I do generates clients much more money in extra sales than it costs them - so I tell them! It's why I always tell you to be active in selling and not passively list features and benefits.

Build your credibility, communicate why you're worth the money and target the right prospects with the right message and then you don't have to undervalue your services.

Viva la revolucion!

Finding work when the "tit is dry" can be exhausting, and I frequently check oDesk.com to see if there are any serious projects up for grabs.

 

Like previous posts have already mentioned, there are designers who will undercut the market rate by a lot which a client would obviously lean towards the cheaper options, but when it comes to serious projects, which you will be able to tell from the way they write up descriptions, you will have a good chance securing the deal if you come across well and have a stunning portfolio.

 

I have picked up a few projects from sites like Elance.com and I certainly wouldn't cross it out.

As with many things, this seems like an easy buck - but think about it this way. The rest of the world does not get tapped for free work in this manner. That's largely because it isn't possible to get 30 car mechanics to do the same job on your car before you pay for it. You phone round for a few quotes, check their recommendations and pitch in. Same with builders, plumbers, in fact every chuffing service you can think of. Design should be no different - it's not as if learning the technology is easy is it, so why should we spend all that time training ourselves to work for under £10 an hour?

 

It might be a great way of landing gigs if you can't get any and you've got time on your hands - BUT it's extremely damaging for the profession as a whole and will lead to the inevitable degradation of the design industry salaries and career prospects. It's just a cynical way for tightwads (the sort that come here looking for free CMS) to get a lot of work for little money. You might get paid today, but long term it could destroy the job market.

 

If you take yourself seriously as a designer, and if you take the industry itself seriously:

SAY NO TO SPEC!!!

Not all of it is spec, and I am definately against working under those circumstances, but like I said you can pick up some deals on those freelance sites.

Finding work when the "tit is dry" can be exhausting.

That's a flippin' classic expression - I love it!

I completely agree about your points about other professions. However they have recognised qualifications, compulsory certifications, etc. No-one will or is legally allowed to ask the mate of a mate to install a gas boiler because he fancies having a go at it in his spare time. Also, no-one can fix your car from Bangalore.

 

Another two factors that I see having an effect on the industry are:

 

If you take yourself seriously as a designer, and if you take the industry itself seriously:

There are people in the market that see this as a part-time and/or second job or paying hobby, so may not have the same concern for the industry as someone trying to make a living from it, and certainly don't have the same pressure to maintaining decent rates to pay the mortgage.

 

Design should be no different - it's not as if learning the technology is easy is it, so why should we spend all that time training ourselves to work for under £10 an hour?

There are also people in the market that just want to land the job first, then worry about how to do it. If they haven't made any investment in the job prior to getting it, they don't have anything to recoup or lose.

 

Things like the price of software has to be recouped though, and we all know how much a full commercial license for an Adobe product is worth. (Which anyone using an education license should probably be upgrading to as soon as they start charging for work.)

 

Software applications give people the impression design is easy, so they don't see the need to pay for it. Anyone with a PC is now exposed to hundreds of fonts and templates just by installing MS Office. Twenty years ago, if you asked the average person 'give me the name of the first font that comes into your head' you probably wouldn't have got an answer. When I was at college, licensing a font meant getting a pack of Letraset, and modifying a font meant drawing it. It did mean you got into a habit of getting things right before getting the inks out though. Who would have the patience to do that now?

 

A lot of the professions on the bidding sites like Elance have now become almost freak professions like no others. It doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to see the internet actually contributing to destroying an industry it only created a decade earlier.

 

As Wizely said, as professionals we need to educate clients about our true worth, otherwise "Doomed, we're all doomed!"

with so many designers willing to undercut by so much

 

 

Just how low do they quote for a full design and xhtml/css code site then? i would say im cheaper than alot of webdeisgners, but that is because i am building my portfolio up. Would rather not put in some quite cheap quotes, to find that im still up against people quoting $100-200 for the complete site

 

Reaper

I used to try this but i got banned for not playing by the rules

 

I just want to throw in a counter arguement (as always) there are people on elance who are looking for a proper job and are looking to pay the going rate, of course mostly is seems like people are looking for a bargin and a load of indians shouting $30!! i do you nice site for $30. I feel the best tactic, as with life, is to stay true to yourself, know how much your worth, analyse the spec, make sure you can do it and do it well and give a realistic quote.

I've been self employed for over 20 years, 15+ in a traditional brick and mortar sole-proprietor business and 5+ network marketing. From one who has been there.... EASIEST? It is WORK. Profitable? We get out of it what we put in it.

 

Going in with the mindset that it's easy is going to lead you one direction - it's easier to lose money online than make it. Any business with the right plan can be profitable, but it still all goes right back to WORK.

 

 

 

 

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