[Alex_McI]

I really have my heart set on going to university, learning EVERYTHING! about webdesigning and doing it as a career, later i want to have my own business in webuilding and maybe even further scripting capabilities to make new applets and so on, i really have a drive for this...

Following a discussion with my dad, he told me it is a dying trade, there is so many free applications that build web sites, so why go pay like £1000? When i said back, but a designer can make it professional, this is the business image to the public, they wont design some cheap site, they can use their expertise... He told me that alot of people are losing interest...

Well, i don't know, i personally think the internet will get bigger, it won't stop growing and with that comes e-commerce, the brilliant idea of being an e-tailer, it cost alot less than being a retailer because of the start up price/running prices of a physical store, then with that comes the webuilding... Is it such a dying trade after all?

Is there anyone out there that can reassure me? I know there is alot of competition, but i need to know that my ambition is not just me being to vague.

[drumbass]

Alex_McI, on Jun 20 2008, 20:29, said:

Later i want to have my own business in webuilding and maybe even further scripting capabilities to make new applets and so on, i really have a drive for this...

Marketing speak! But seriously, your dad has a point, there is less of a clamour for websites than there was in the past, that said any serious business now has a website and I don't see a shortage of new startup business at any point in the future so there will always be work in web design. His argument regarding D.I.Y websites is totally wrong. Sure you can do it yourself. The same way you can paint your car with gloss paint from B&Q (What is it with the car analogies today!?). There will always be a market for people who know how to make websites properly(there are many many aspects to good web design including a good eye for aesthetic detail, ability to write good code (which means you must be a systematic thinker / decent at maths) and critical thought. Good communication and presentation skills. Confidence in your abilities etc etc.) Do you have a particular talent for graphic design or computing/ writing code. It does sound to me like you don't really know why you want to design webpages. Am I wrong? And finally If you really want to learn how to make webpages, you will learn 10x faster by yourself than by going to University / College (In my experience). Have you tried to make a webpage already, give it a shot.

[tigerlabs]

Your dad has a point...

[BlueDreamer]

Th web design trade as we know it today is probably evolving but not dying. The internet is still really in it's infancy and there will be huge changes ahead so getting the key skills now may pay dividends later on.

[drumbass]

Oh and one more thing to think about.

Outsourcing....... and also China.....

[Helen]

If you are good, you have nothing to worry about

[ThomasHardy]

Helen, on Jun 20 2008, 21:36, said:

If you are good, you have nothing to worry about

Yup, I found it hard to get my foot on the ladder but now I have work on all the time. I will be starting uni in october and plan to continue freelancing through uni and then get a job in the web industry for a few years and maybe go back to freelancing. I really enjoy the freedom and meeting clients it improves my people skills and I am now alot more confident.

[wizely]

I think your Dad is doing exactly the right thing. He makes good points and it's right for him to make you think about it. And it's right for you to look for answers. Obviously be cautious that you won't get an unbiased opinion here - considering these guys are all designers!!!!
As an outsider I think Bluedreamer's point about web design evolving is the key. As technology moves-on there are always new design opportunities. And as more and more businesses and applications move onto the net then they also push this evolution.
Design becomes dated, at-the-time cutting-edge functionality lags behind and people expect more and more. So there will always be a need for good designers with solid skills kept up to date. But there is only ever going to be more and more people getting into web design so competition isn't going to ease.

Think carefully about what you like, what you're good at and where the opportunities are. Don't forget to look at other career paths - it's no good trying to decide whether to get into web design without considering what you would do if not!

Good lkuck

[Alex_McI]

I have a website http://www.alex-mcintosh.com and yeah i am really good with the code, slowly but surely getting into design and photography.


For a backup.. I don't know anything else i might like, it has to do with computers though.

So as long as i am good at my job and have something to offer, i can do well?

[Cabbage]

If you're heart is in it then there's no reason why you shouldn't succeed. Don't try to run away from your ambitions, I did and chose a course in network computing. Before long I was spending more time doing web design than networking and started losing interest in the course before changing to my current course.

[Alex_McI]

Oh that's all good then

So it is going to be tough, if i want them goals... Right?

[EvSouL]

bluedreamer, on Jun 20 2008, 13:18, said:

Th web design trade as we know it today is probably evolving but not dying. The internet is still really in it's infancy and there will be huge changes ahead so getting the key skills now may pay dividends later on.

Agree... just because people have sites doesn't mean they won't want them redesigned in the future... its a cycle thats happens... no site --> first site --> first site gets old and not hip --> redesign --> .....

[sunwukung]

Here's my two cents. I think the difficult thing with webdesign is that second word - design. As your dad said, many people are willing to put a site together themselves using x package. The problem is that regardless of the capacity to author and launch sites, making one that looks good and is easy to use is more than just putting the information on the internet in a selection of coloured boxes with a navigation field to the top/left/right.

There are countless bad sites out there, failing to drum up trade for their authors/owners, but unfortunately - since many of these folks are not designers, they can't percieve the problem with their frame-tastic fuschia and lime resized 10mp photo magnum opus. They don't understand why comic sans is a crime - and insist you use it in their site (thus disqualifying it's inclusion in the artists portfolio...).

It's the same in any industry where art is involved - the "general public" have a mistrust of the artist, insist on trying to implement their own aesthetics and can't comprehend the problems these decisions present to the visual integrity and functionality of their site. They don't believe the artists reasoning/instincts - yet are affected daily by visual design without realising it. Since art is not as easy to quantify as mathematics, the public tend to dismiss the artist as eccentric and/or overpaid. Just try and discuss the concept of branding with a breadhead - it's like trying to convert Dawkins to Catholicism. Brand, to most people, is simply a logo - trying to communicate the gestalt process of branding (and it's value) to non-believers is not easy - although you can easily point to examples where it's worked. That's why artists ARE so valuable, because they have made it their business to understand the interface between psychology and design.

In a nutshell, as long as there is a demand for visual communication, there will always be a need for visual design(ers). The problem is the customers just don't know it.

[1christopher]

Fantastically summed up.

I have a client who presents ideas to me as BMPs designed in Paint and then expects me to copy them 'but nicely'!!!

[drumbass]

@ sunwukung

Nicely put... Your avatar is quite disturbing though

@ 1christopher

That's horrific!

[1christopher]

Quote

That's horrific!

Tell me about it!

[fruit & veg]

No offence but your Dad is totally wrong.

Did calculators put accountants out of a job? Did computers put administrators out of a job? Did the internet close down all the shops and banks on the high street? No.

Does your Dad do everything at his job; production, marketing, R&D, administration, delivery, packing, maintenance, accounts? No.

Specialists will always be needed no matter how things evolve.

Get your Dad to design a website using a package - I bet it'll be rubbish and take him ages. Then ask him, wouldn't it be better and faster if you hired someone to do that?

Go to university.

[wizely]

Good work sunwukung!

It's even worse in the copywriting world - everyone can write! I definitely consider myself an artist and just as you say for design - effective writing is all about getting a pyschological and emotional response. In good copy, just like in design, there is much more going on than meets the eye... I would actually say there's more than meets the brain - designers and copywriters are in the business of going beyond the conscious intelect to create moods.
In both disciplines we go beyond functionality into the intangible realms of what 'looks good' or 'sounds good'. I have a talent for achieving that in words but cannot achieve that in design despite being able to create a functional, user-friendly, 100% standards-compliant site and understanding much of the theory behind design. That's what makes a designer.

I see the online market becoming ever more competitive and designers will have to offer more because clients will demand more. But this is not all bad. Those 'cowboy' designers out there will wither if they can't keep up with higher demands. It's about education really. As the internet continues to grow there will be fewer and fewer people who don't understand the need for effective design or copy. Once it was enough to have a website but now it's becoming important to have a good website.

So, if you're not wearing a big hat and spurs there will always be a demand for talent.

[LeeSalter]

Alex_McI, on Jun 21 2008, 18:26, said:

For a backup.. I don't know anything else i might like, it has to do with computers though.

As a backup, I would say learn C# or C++. There WILL always be a need for programmers. Maybe then you could focus on game design. That way you'd get make something that looks great, plays great and has a great deal of tech stuff in the backend.

[Alex_McI]

fruit & veg, on Jun 23 2008, 11:06, said:

No offence but your Dad is totally wrong.

Did calculators put accountants out of a job? Did computers put administrators out of a job? Did the internet close down all the shops and banks on the high street? No.

Does your Dad do everything at his job; production, marketing, R&D, administration, delivery, packing, maintenance, accounts? No.

Specialists will always be needed no matter how things evolve.

Get your Dad to design a website using a package - I bet it'll be rubbish and take him ages. Then ask him, wouldn't it be better and faster if you hired someone to do that?

Go to university.

lmao, good point

LeeSalter, on Jun 23 2008, 12:01, said:

As a backup, I would say learn C# or C++. There WILL always be a need for programmers. Maybe then you could focus on game design. That way you'd get make something that looks great, plays great and has a great deal of tech stuff in the backend.

Yeah, that's a good idea... Thanks for that..

So it really isn't dying after all lol, I'll show him this post and then tell ya what he thinks

[Aaron Russell]

Yeah I think your Dad is absolutely wrong. My Dad said something similar when I was young - I ended up getting disillusioned and not knowing what I wanted to do, didn't get into a propper career and generally found myself in dead-end jobs until my mid twenties when I realised I should have followed my heart earlier in life. I retrained and got some qualifications under my belt and ever since have had absolutely no problem finding relevant web work and have recently gone full time freelance and enjoying it very much.

Whether web design as we know it is dying or not (and for what it's worth I don't think it is in the slightest), in life you have to follow your heart. If your heart is not in it, you wont enjoy. Do what you want mate.

[EggMan]

Alex, its funny - not so long ago my dad told me exactly the same thing.

Yet here I am, working full time in the web development industry, and DOUBLING my salary with freelance work every evening. Since I started working freelance, I have not had a single week free, not one, I have been booked 2 months in advance since the first website that I did went live.
I got picked up by a Web design / development / SEO company quickly, first job I wen for, and I got hired - if we were in a dying market then my company certainly wouldnt be expanding at the rate it is. (2 new employees every month since I started).

Calum - people out source to foreign countries because it's cheaper? Again, are you actually a web designer?

Let me ask you this

If I offered you IT Tech support via phone, and told you that you could either dial a free number to the middle east, or you could dial a 2pence per minute line in the UK - which would you choose?
I think the unbelievable amount of marketing in the current business environment for companies who offer 'uk based call centres' says enough.
People want quality, not price.

And if that WASN'T the case, then the most recent client we've taken on at work wouldnt be paying 96k for a website from us rather than 5k for a website from a design company in Israel who quoted them that figure.


Let me give you a couple of figures

from 06-07 offline advertising spend increased by 4%
from 06-07 internet advertising spend increased by 31%
growing at NINE times the speed of all other advertising sectors combined

By 09 internet advertising is set to overtake the sector completely, a pretty decent achievment considering that in 2003 internet advertising was the smallest of ALL advertising sectors in the UK

Where do people put internet advertising? On websites.
Who builds websites?

Web designers.

I love this job, and I would stick with it even if it wasn't growing at all, but that is not the case.

[Aaron Russell]

EggMan, on Jun 23 2008, 21:07, said:

Massive long rant...

Here here EggMan - Well said!

[drumbass]

@ EggMan

I'm offended TBH. Did you read any of my post above that one?? Or the post where I agreed with what sunwukung said. Or notice the smiley after my outsourcing comment (Yeah that means it was a little bit tounge and cheek). Why the rant in my direction? Yeah I agree with you but no need to be such...... a dick to me.

"people out source to foreign countries because it's cheaper?"

Yes. Yes they do as a matter of fact (Is there another reason?). And If you don't think that people want cheap over quality then I suggest you go to Sitepoint, Crowdspring, 99 Designs and all others and have a look at the whoring that's going on over there. I agree the quality is by and large, terrible, but there are customers for this stuff out there and I would say that as these emerging economies teach their population in the skills we currently have the amount of outsourcing will only increase.

I was looking at a post on Techcrunch today and to be honest it goes against what you said about internet ad-revenue (granted it was about the U.S market but I Imagine there are similarities). Internet Ad revenue represented less than 8% of the market last year. Granted It's growing, but to say it will become the largest sector next year, just isn't true.

"Again, are you actually a web designer?"

I'm sorry did you accuse me of not being one previously? I see your a long time member here, and I'm just new to the board. But your tone is abusive and you've pissed me off.

Edit - I'm not starting a war here, just letting you know that you have offended me. Peace.

[Alex_McI]

That was quite good eggman, really inspiring

[Alex_McI]

Well i have learned a lot on here, i can actually appreciate it a little more as art, i never thought of it that way but i do think it is now, a form of art...

I also still have a lot to learn but I AM DEDICATED TO THIS!!!!

Well, sadly i need to concentrate on my coursework in college right now but i will get back to my website to completely re-design it soon


thanks again everyone... Anyone got tips to help with success?

[EggMan]

Aaron Russell, on Jun 23 2008, 21:27, said:

Here here EggMan - Well said!

Cheers

-----------------------

Calum

If you think the US internet advertising market and its percentages in relation to the advertising sector as a whole are in any was similar to the UK then that just goes to show how much little you know. And I'm not speculating that it will be the largest advertising sector by next year, I'm stating a fact - that if the rate of growth progresses further at it's current rate then it will be the largest sector by next year. Personally, I don't think it will continue at it's current rate, I think the rate will increase. But that is speculation.

To answer the end of your post,

You say "I've pissed You off" and "You're not starting a war, just letting me know that I have offended you"

Guess what? I found your original post making out this industry to be all doom and gloom offensive, and it pissed me off.

So it goes both ways. Deal with it. And move on.

[Cabbage]

LeeSalter, on Jun 23 2008, 12:01, said:

As a backup, I would say learn C# or C++. There WILL always be a need for programmers. Maybe then you could focus on game design. That way you'd get make something that looks great, plays great and has a great deal of tech stuff in the backend.

I'm sorry to be rude but you couldn't be more wrong about computer games design. I've got 4 friends doing it at university, there's something ridiculous like 5000 people doing computer games design courses in the UK and the last time I read only about 90 jobs!

Although I agree about learning a real programming language I wouldn't go for C++ as C# is newer (albeit probably not quit as powerful as C++). Also if you look around the web a LOT of applications are becoming web based, so it'd probably make more sense to learn something like Flex or ROR as these are a good groundwork for learning other languages and would be more beneficial to Alex as he's looking at web.

[EggMan]

Alex,
Tips for success:

LOVE what you do - passion is a must to keep you happy with what you're doing, and keep you working hard.
STAY inspired (google: smashing magazine, noupe, design float, and subscribe to their rss feeds)
NEVER give up - I am a very strong believer that you can do anything that you set your mind to, and make a living out of it.

[Helen]

I may be regurgitating what someone has already said and I apologize if I have. But the Internet Isn't going to die, it is going to evolve.....and as long as you enjoy what you do.

I would much rather be a penniless web designer that a bored stiff accountant

(and if It is going to die, then I would be bloody worried he he!)

[drumbass]

What post was that? Doom and Gloom? Read what I wrote again, because that's NOT what I said. This game is one of the, if not the fastest changing industry on the planet and you've always got to keep one eye firmly fixed on the road ahead.
I agree with your fire in the belly stuff though, thats the way to do anything. Love what you do and try to be fantastic at it, success will follow.
And nice blog, I read your piece on human v bot SEO earlier today and It confirmed what I already tacitly knew. It's just nice to have that confirmed sometimes. I would say with regards to pissing each other off, that you directly used my name and directed an insult straight at me, I did not do the same to you.

[Rob]

Now now lads, let it lie…

As for the original question; Web design will be around for as long as the internet is. Everyone thought the internet was done for after the bubble burst, yet we're still here, stronger than ever. It's been proven time and time again that having a website and advertising on the internet can improve exposure and sales of a predominantly 'offline' business – that sector will always need web designers.

You then you have the purely online sectors: professional blogs, internet start-ups (Yahoo, Google, Youtube, etc.), gambling websites, e-commerce stores, software manufacturers, etc. These areas are what keep the internet afloat, pumping huge amounts of revenue and business across the internet – most of them don't deal in the 'offline' world at all!

Like bluedreamer said, the internet will evolve to accommodate whatever is thrown at it. You'd be hard pushed to see it collapse any time soon. But what if it did? Well something would take it's place – it has become too entrenched in every day life for it to simply "disappear". There will always be something else for web designers to move onto if this extremely unlikely event occurred.

At the end of the day you shouldn't be worrying about "what-if"s and "but [insert name here] said that…"s. Concentrate on the here and now – find a profession you love doing, and enjoy it. Life it too short to be worrying that far in the future!

If you need any more encouragement; I've never had any problem finding work in the web design / development industry. I've never had a proper interview, and I run my freelance business in my free time from my bedroom. So ignore your dad and don't let anyone tell you what you should be doing!

Rob out!

[drumbass]

Rob, on Jun 23 2008, 23:55, said:

Now now lads, let it lie…

I know, I just need the last word. It's my immaturity!

Love the site by the way Rob, It' a beauty. Watch your sig though, I thought you had time machine skills for a minute there....

[wizely]

I love to see a bit of passion boiling-over at least it means you guys care about your industry and what you do.

Passion is important, as is enjoying your life - but in the commercial world it's no substitute for skill!

The interwebbytinternet will only continue to grow in one form or another, but on the other hand so will technology and the competition.

When word processors started-out they were incredibly fiddly (anyone remember having to switch views in Word Perfect to sort out bolds and italics etc.) - there's no reason that WYSIWYG couldn't become powerful enough to produce perfectly good results - especially as the browsers seem to be falling more and more in-line with the web standards. Considering how technology has progressed in every area it would be naive to dismiss WYSIWYGs as never posing a threat in the future.

As for the competition - there are plenty of lucrative and expanding markets out there and in those markets there is plenty of competition. The world seems to be drowning in web designers because the set-up costs are minimal and the opportunities huge. When consumers are faced with so much choice they have the power. Consumers are also more and more empowered by the interaction that the internet provides and there is plenty of free stuff out there. OK free stuff is inferiour - we all agree. But it does keep prices down, and so does competition in any market.

As for a father voicing these concerns to his son? If not him then who will? I don't hold with the 'Y Generation' mantra of 'you deserve it because you tried'. Working hard at something is important but not half as much as succeeding at it, no matter how distasteful that sounds.
I started life as a chemist then moved into Business Analysis and marketing and now copywriting. I had a core skill set that I could transfer from one discipline to another. Being able to analyse complex issues, distil the salient points and then write effectively were important in each industry I worked in. Becoming self-employed allowed me more time (at the expense of income) because life is too short to waste on commuting, endless unproductive meetings and earning money for someone else.
So, go for web design if that's your passion and you honestly feel you have the talent to do well. Be prepared to work hard and don't put too much store in a degree which lots of people will be doing. In my experience qualifications usually help you get you an interview but it's personality and talent that get you jobs.

My advice would be to back-up web design with something else that's related and easily transferable should it not work out. Can you add business studies, marketing, maths or project management or whatever to your course? If something will help you in web design and offer a back-up then don't dismiss it lightly just because right now you feel web design is the only thing for you - things do change and so will you. Who knows what opportunities might come along?

None of this is directed at anyone and feel free to disagree with every point!

[Oh, and geez is it July already? Time flies! Does that mean you've finished my site design Rob?!!!!]

[1christopher]

No, you've got 6 more days till July!

[LeeSalter]

Cabbage, on Jun 23 2008, 23:12, said:

I'm sorry to be rude but you couldn't be more wrong about computer games design. I've got 4 friends doing it at university, there's something ridiculous like 5000 people doing computer games design courses in the UK and the last time I read only about 90 jobs!

Although I agree about learning a real programming language I wouldn't go for C++ as C# is newer (albeit probably not quit as powerful as C++). Also if you look around the web a LOT of applications are becoming web based, so it'd probably make more sense to learn something like Flex or ROR as these are a good groundwork for learning other languages and would be more beneficial to Alex as he's looking at web.

You weren't rude at all Cabbage, but have put a well-reasoned point across in a non-argumentative fashion.
Of course, C# can be used for web-programming too, in the guise of ASP.NET, although I'd suggest that's more for web-application programming than for bog-standard web design.

[Shaun]

I do feel that it will be dying very soon. People will be picking it up early (e.g. I started at 11 years old), there is software available that does a lot for you. This is not unusual and will happen in most trades. It's called development. I feel there really is no threat if you keep up to date and remain the best.

It is something that I have been aware of for a while and this is why I started developing web applications early and setting up subscription services. You don't always have to sell your skills... you can focus them on creating other unique products and services.

[Rob]

Well considering it's illegal to hire anyone under the age of 16 to do anything other than medial "light work" then I can't see the age factor becoming a major issue in the downfall of web design. Most companies are prejudiced towards "young" people (under 20) because of their lack of business experience and skills anyway. Yes they could be the most talented person in the world, but a big company isn't going to trust many thousands of pounds in the hands of a teenager. There is also the fact that it's plain awkward and risky for a company to hire young people – legally there are a lot of hoops a company has to jump through to hire anyone between 16 and 18.

It's a sad and simple fact of life unfortunately.

That said, I have absolutely nothing against young people picking up web design. I'm actually all for it as I was 12 when I started myself, so I've been there.

I also don't quite see how having an influx of young web designers is going to kill the market. It will raise the competition and sort the wheat from the chaff – increasing the quality of web design as a whole. If anything it will encourage growth in the web design market. Bring on the hordes of web designers I say!!

[Shaun]

Oh I completely agree. I just feel it will become as common as basic IT for most of them. Yes it may encourage the growth in the market but it is a possibility that the physical work will not be as valuable in the future.

[Rob]

Shaun, on Jun 24 2008, 20:15, said:

it is a possibility that the physical work will not be as valuable in the future.

Can't agree with you more. It seems computers are the future… and who can blame anyone for wanting to be part of it? Even though we will always need manual labour, there just isn't any incentive or future growth with it like there is with the internet and computer.