[Aumadore]

Hi all, I hope you can help

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum but it's e-commerce, design and programming related.

I've taken on a project with a local businessman - he's getting my services for free so I can build up a portfolio (and learn at the same time).

He runs an apparel printing business - pre-printed t-shirts, caps, bandanas etc.

He's asked me if I can install e-commerce apparel design software into the site, like on http://www.spreadshirt.co.uk so that his visitors can customise their clothing and buy them.

Ideally he'd like me to do this for free, but so far I'm finding these two sites:

http://www.no-refresh.com/
http://productsdesigner.com/

...which want $1,500-$2,800. I live in the UK and that's still a lot of money.

I don't really know how else to approach this. I'm not a programmer. I do HTML and CSS, and adapt existing Javascripts and PHP/MySQL. Does this mean I'm screwed?

I suppose I could try cobbling together some sort of PHP form but I have no idea how I'd integrate that into an e-commerce set-up.

Maybe there's a way I could make this kind of application in Flash as a proficient-to-advanced user?

Please can anyone tell me if there's an easier/cheaper way to do this?

thanks guys

[oakleaves]

"Do free e-commerce online apparel design apps exist? "

Doubt it..

[Bomb]

You don't want to get into designing this kind of site for free really, it'll be more trouble than it's worth guaranteed.

[BlueDreamer]

There are some prebuilt scripts and the ones you mention sound quite cheap - a custom built solution would easily cost double.

If you have to spend 2k-3k on scripts/programming then that's part of the cost of the site you're building - you client is going to foot the bill anyway so what's the problem?

[Aumadore]

BlueDreamer, on 31 January 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

There are some prebuilt scripts and the ones you mention sound quite cheap - a custom built solution would easily cost double.

If you have to spend 2k-3k on scripts/programming then that's part of the cost of the site you're building - you client is going to foot the bill anyway so what's the problem?

Well I don't think he will foot the bill for that money. He currently doesn't have a website and he's not a chain store, and would probably ditch the idea or want free/low cost alternatives instead of shelling out that much. I say this because he didn't want to pay a yearly fee (about £6-£10) for his domain name - instead he wanted to buy it outright - I guess he was thinking that he'd pay less if he bought it outright than being hit every year. I have advised him that he cannot buy his domain name outright, as far as I know. I found Network Solutions which offer a 100 year rental period for about £1,500 so I basically advised him that he should just pay the yearly fee.

Thanks for your replies guys, this is a good place. I like the site's design and hope to be capable of that some day.

[porkchops]

It's kind of crazy to give away e-commerce stuff. Doing it properly (in a way that is secure enough to comply with various laws about payment processing) requires either a lot of know-how or paying someone to do it.

You might need to inform the client that if he wants an online store he's going to have to shell out something for it... It might be simple to use a hosted solution that handles the payment processing and security, though there are open-source shopping carts that can link with stuff like paypal, but that's going to be a LOT of work for something you aren't getting a return on.

For the record, it's a better solution to make up fake projects for yourself (come up with an imaginary client and creative brief, e.g. Joe's Plumbing wants a logo and website made in a professional yet friendly style) and create something for your portfolio that way. When you do lots of work for free (especially work where a good designer and developer would charge at least multiple thousands) devalues web design work. Clients that get free work rarely pay a dime in the future and any word of mouth marketing will include the "this guy works for cheap/free" part.

This post has been edited by porkchops: 31 January 2012 - 11:26 PM

[Aumadore]

porkchops, on 31 January 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

It's kind of crazy to give away e-commerce stuff. Doing it properly (in a way that is secure enough to comply with various laws about payment processing) requires either a lot of know-how or paying someone to do it.

You might need to inform the client that if he wants an online store he's going to have to shell out something for it... It might be simple to use a hosted solution that handles the payment processing and security, though there are open-source shopping carts that can link with stuff like paypal, but that's going to be a LOT of work for something you aren't getting a return on.

For the record, it's a better solution to make up fake projects for yourself (come up with an imaginary client and creative brief, e.g. Joe's Plumbing wants a logo and website made in a professional yet friendly style) and create something for your portfolio that way. When you do lots of work for free (especially work where a good designer and developer would charge at least multiple thousands) devalues web design work. Clients that get free work rarely pay a dime in the future and any word of mouth marketing will include the "this guy works for cheap/free" part.

My problem with creating fake projects is that I don't feel strong enough to persevere with them under my own steam. If I run into problems, I can always change the specification to make my life easier, and that kind of defeats the point. I need a legitimate client as a muse - a source of inspiration. A person who I must keep my promise to.

My own projects are limited to my own experiences in web development. I would never have thought of this type of project and that's why I need to be challenged by an outside source. I didn't have a very good education and I'm thinking of starting university this year, so I can get the technical side of these things down.

I never intended to re-invent the wheel as far as e-commerce goes. I have suggested to my client FatCow.com for his domain/hosting needs which has a free online shop feature. I have yet to use this particular service but might transfer my website to them as it seems like a good deal.

I'm doing this primarily to build up a portfolio for my CV, as without one, I'm not getting a look-in at these web developer jobs. My focus is more on that rather than if I gain new business as a future freelance web developer. I'd rather work for someone else. Thanks for your advice, this place has been incredibly helpful.

This post has been edited by Aumadore: 01 February 2012 - 02:21 PM

[Renaissance-Design]

This definitely isn't a client you want to be working for. If you have to contribute free work to someone, do it for a charity rather than a business (as we've advised other posters in the past).

This particular client isn't thinking about the Web in the right way, so your project will be a nightmare - a website is a measurable investment: £X invested into it translates directly into a multiple of £X in sales.

[Ste Hughes]

Do not do it for free.

next thing he does is tell his friends about his 'free' web designer

next thing you know you're working for pennies.

[BlueDreamer]

I think he needs educating as to the real price of a web site with advanced functions like he wants.

Methinks this client sounds like a lot or potential trouble, clients that want the earth for nothing usually are

[Bomb]

I think you are getting some sound advice in this thread, from people who do this for a living. You should definitely walk away from this one. Building online stores for people when you are getting paid can often be a pain.

As Porkchops said, build up your portfolio by working to fake briefs, I'm sure there will be plenty of people on here that would be willing to help you come up with some.

This post has been edited by Bomb: 02 February 2012 - 06:20 PM

[Aumadore]

Bomb, on 02 February 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think you are getting some sound advice in this thread, from people who do this for a living. You should definitely walk away from this one. Building online stores for people when you are getting paid can often be a pain.

As Porkchops said, build up your portfolio by working to fake briefs, I'm sure there will be plenty of people on here that would be willing to help you come up with some.

I agree, it's nice to hear from seasoned gurus like yourselves. I can't walk away from this one as I've already promised to do the work, and I don't break my promises unless I'm dead. Or alive but physically incapable.

I'll just be a bit more careful in future before signing on the dotted line.

To be honest I'm not having that much trouble (yet) with this. I've already cobbled together a basic CADA (as I like to call it - custom apparel design application).

It's not really an application, just jpegs and JavaScript-implemented-CSS.

I've had to use tables for the sake of making vertical-align easier to handle, thus meaning I'll be using XHTML for the whole site... and it works in CSS2 so there's a touch of backwards compatibility.

So far it's cross-browser compatible too.

Anyways, I've already got another client lined up - unrelated to the first client. My friend's girlfriend is opening up a hair/beauty salon soon so that will be just design and information. Nothing as complicated as my first client!

[Bomb]

Aumadore, on 02 February 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I can't walk away from this one as I've already promised to do the work, and I don't break my promises unless I'm dead. Or alive but physically incapable.

I can totally respect that, if I were you though I'd just stick with the price you had of $1,500-$2,800 being the price of the design software needed to create the site. If he doesn't agree to paying that then you would be free to walk away from the job, conscience clear.

The cost of the software "should" indicate the complexity/time/knowledge etc, it takes takes to develop it. You are probably not going to be able to achieve similar results easily enough to make it worth your while for free.

It does sound like a good project to work on though. I worked for a few years on a retainer for an online band merchandise company, building the official european stores for some well known bands - a lot of t-shirts . I personally would need to bring in a developer to build the functions you need into a site that was also an ecom. Or buy a similar plugin as you've mentioned & account for the cost in my quote.

Good luck, I'd be interested to see what you come up with if you do decide to carry on with it.

**EDIT**

What software are you using for the ecom?

This post has been edited by Bomb: 03 February 2012 - 01:42 PM

[Aumadore]

Bomb, on 03 February 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

I can totally respect that, if I were you though I'd just stick with the price you had of $1,500-$2,800 being the price of the design software needed to create the site. If he doesn't agree to paying that then you would be free to walk away from the job, conscience clear.

The cost of the software "should" indicate the complexity/time/knowledge etc, it takes takes to develop it. You are probably not going to be able to achieve similar results easily enough to make it worth your while for free.

It does sound like a good project to work on though. I worked for a few years on a retainer for an online band merchandise company, building the official european stores for some well known bands - a lot of t-shirts . I personally would need to bring in a developer to build the functions you need into a site that was also an ecom. Or buy a similar plugin as you've mentioned & account for the cost in my quote.

Good luck, I'd be interested to see what you come up with if you do decide to carry on with it.

**EDIT**

What software are you using for the ecom?

The client is unable to specify the cost of user-customised apparel, as he says each individual order has it's own price. So my CADA is just a form-to-email jobby which I can accomplish with my current level of knowledge.

I've attached a very rough draft of my CADA if you're interested. Just need to figure out how to change the colour of the t-shirts properly, but that's just a mini-tutorial away on Google.

*EDIT* - can't attach .rar files.

I don't know what software I'll be using for the ecom - FatCow.com's inbuilt free shop feature, I guess.

I forgot to say that I'm also using real clients to gain client-facing experience - if I'm not good enough to be a web deesigner/developer, I may still be good enough to be a web project manager.

This post has been edited by Aumadore: 03 February 2012 - 05:08 PM