[Renaissance-Design]

brightonmike, on 07 February 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Actually laughed aloud at how this thread has descended into a debate as to how best to sever both ones arms simultaneously.

I vote for the jumping into a cage filled with hungry wolves with meat strapped to your arms option.

Nah. Even with the meat, wolves hamstring first.

[Luielua]

First you don't need a degree to practice webdesign in most countries (although it's a plus) since personal effort can help you understand the whereabouts. Many people who see web development as carreer opportunity (at least in my country) are being discouraged by the number of people who design web pages and give up in one year. I believe that at the end of the day it's just a matter of quality over quantity.

[Jejune]

Wow, some amazing whining on here.

Woe is me, there's too many young people in my industry and they don't work as hard as me.

I'm teh bestest web designer in the whole universe. But nobody appreciates me.

I'm an artist. Please validate me. Boo hoo.

You should just get over yourselves.

[Renaissance-Design]

Jejune, on 09 February 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Wow, some amazing whining on here.

Woe is me, there's too many young people in my industry and they don't work as hard as me.

I'm teh bestest web designer in the whole universe. But nobody appreciates me.

I'm an artist. Please validate me. Boo hoo.

You should just get over yourselves.

Wind your neck in, sunshine. When you've spent ten years learning and honing your skills, you'll find it a bit galling to lose work to cocky idiots who make a hash of it and tar the rest of us with the same brush.

Nobody here is claiming to be an artist. If you think designers are or want to be artists, you're in the wrong place.

[porkchops]

Jejune, on 09 February 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Wow, some amazing whining on here.

Woe is me, there's too many young people in my industry and they don't work as hard as me.

I'm teh bestest web designer in the whole universe. But nobody appreciates me.

I'm an artist. Please validate me. Boo hoo.

You should just get over yourselves.

I don't think anyone is asking for appreciation or validation, we just get annoyed by people who don't know what they are doing presenting themselves as experts and making it harder for legitimate designers to do their jobs.

And Chris is right... if you think designers are whiny artists you are in the wrong place.

[NoClass]

jamesosix, on 01 February 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

It does annoy me how companies want an-all-in-one person. They wont just have committed front end/ui designers AND back end developers, to save money and make more profit, so its their fault really that people try and learn everything, rather than being a specialist in one area.

Agreed. I'm self employed, I run everything from the initial meeting, through tech spec and concepts to valid (X)HTML / CSS mark up. I can PHP a few simple tasks but that's where I stop. I have a super talented PHP dude who takes over at this point for scratch built CMS, SSL, SQL and server security. He then hands back over to me where I fix the validation problems that no doubt have sprung up, SEO the site and launch.

This works well for me because I don't have to be all things to all people. Me and my developer constantly mock each others skills; he laughs at my PHP attempts and mock his crayon artwork. Together we pull off great things; developing sites that do exactly what is required, score well in the search engines and thus please the clients. This gives us both the space to 'dig deeper' in our chosen expertise.

As for letting the client decide how it looks and exactly what it says I always advise against it; if they know best then why call me. Every time a client gets 'too involved' with design or method things go wrong or the website ends up looking like something from the 80s; so much so that there are sites out there without my company name on because I'm embarrassed the website exists. The clients who do listen or realise I know know my beans or later when it's time for a refresh do well and their conversion rate and search engine position blossom. I don't really care either way so long as I'm paid. I feel for the clients who just won't listen, they may as well get their money and spank it down the pub.

Are the too many people trying to get a career in web design? Probably. Are there too many people trying to get a career in web development? Possibly. (I treat the two as separate roles). Web design is for the artistic, web development is for the artistically challenged - no offence just a poke at my php dude.

[mrchristoph]

In the UK it definitely seemed there were too many designevelopers everywhere. You should all come to live with me in Hong Kong. It seems there are hardly any freelance designers/developers over here and finding work has been pretty easy compared to back in UK. Just don't steal TOO much of my business please

This post has been edited by mrchristoph: 09 February 2012 - 12:48 AM

[brightonmike]

Jejune, on 09 February 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Wow, some amazing whining on here.

Woe is me, there's too many young people in my industry and they don't work as hard as me.

I'm teh bestest web designer in the whole universe. But nobody appreciates me.

I'm an artist. Please validate me. Boo hoo.

You should just get over yourselves.

Why do people keep thinking this is an attack on young people? It's not.

I'm a young person myself, and if you'd read through the thread properly you'd have seen me say that I actually think the older generation is partly to blame.

[MikeChipshop]

Jejune, on 09 February 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Wow, some amazing whining on here.

Woe is me, there's too many young people in my industry and they don't work as hard as me.

I'm teh bestest web designer in the whole universe. But nobody appreciates me.

I'm an artist. Please validate me. Boo hoo.

You should just get over yourselves.

Posts like this only go to emphasise that some people don't read the threads through properly before forming a realistic opinion.
Please feel free to go back through the thread before replying.

[oakleaves]

Why worry, the cream always rises to the top..

[oakleaves]

mrchristoph, on 09 February 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

In the UK it definitely seemed there were too many designevelopers everywhere. You should all come to live with me in Hong Kong. It seems there are hardly any freelance designers/developers over here and finding work has been pretty easy compared to back in UK.

I would if I had the guts to do it. Brave move.

[NoClass]

oakleaves, on 09 February 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Why worry, the cream always rises to the top..

I never worry ...

[oakleaves]

brightonmike, on 09 February 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Why do people keep thinking this is an attack on young people?

I'm not sure Mike, but maybe it had something to do with..

brightonmike, on 31 January 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

1. I think young people mistakenly believe a career in the web to be more glamorous and prosperous than it really is....

4. I think a lot of young people are seeing the web as an easy career option. It's a default fallback if all else fails. I particularly come to this conclusion based on a lot of thread I've seen on here...

brightonmike, on 31 January 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

All I can say is this Country is going to have a shocking problem with youth unemployment and severely unskilled young workers, very, very soon.

brightonmike, on 01 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

....There was an 18 year old on the news a while back who created an iOS app which has received backing from an Indian Businessman.

When interviewed, he was ridiculously laid back and casual and he just made what he had achieved look absurdly easy. "Well I just had this idea and made the app and now I've got £10,000 investment".

In a single news report, he managed, whether he meant to or not, completely de-value the whole thing ....

[Renaissance-Design]

oakleaves, on 09 February 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

Why worry, the cream always rises to the top..

Yeah, but so does the scum.

[oakleaves]

Renaissance-Design, on 09 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Yeah, but so does the scum.

oh no, in that case we are all doomed

ps, good point!

This post has been edited by oakleaves: 09 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

[brightonmike]

oakleaves, on 09 February 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'm not sure Mike, but maybe it had something to do with..

...


..Where am I attacking young people?

Nothing you have quoted there is anything such. Nothing there is blaming young people for anything.

Just because I am talking about young people, it doesn't mean I am attacking them. That is a silly conclusion to come to.

[Glowbridge]

Jejune, on 09 February 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Wow, some amazing whining on here.

Woe is me, there's too many young people in my industry and they don't work as hard as me.

I'm teh bestest web designer in the whole universe. But nobody appreciates me.

I'm an artist. Please validate me. Boo hoo.

You should just get over yourselves.

OMG Guys he's right. Let's stop discussing topics that matter to us and go be content with ****ty situations! Thinking is for ******s anyway.

[nfc212]

Renaissance-Design, on 09 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Yeah, but so does the scum.

Yep, diamonds sink, turds float.

[BlueDreamer]

What - nobody mentioned "SEO" yet?

[nfc212]

BlueDreamer, on 09 February 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

What - nobody mentioned "SEO" yet?

Wha's 'at then ?!?!?

I actually came across a post on another forum from a designer with around 30 sites in their portfolio and they wanted to know what SEO was. A client had asked them about it and they only had a vague idea from a few bits they had skimmed over here and there.

[oakleaves]

Renaissance-Design, on 09 February 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

so does the scum.

nfc212, on 09 February 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

diamonds sink, turds float.

hmm. looks like the whole floating thing was not the best analogy then

[oakleaves]

BlueDreamer, on 09 February 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

What - nobody mentioned "SEO" yet?

no not yet.

And what about people who set up 'agencies' who do not know or even attempt to know about the business but instead pay people peanuts on elance and people per hour to do the work that they land and keep the big mark-up (goodness knows how they land the clients in the first place)

[nfc212]

oakleaves, on 09 February 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

hmm. looks like the whole floating thing was not the best analogy then

Depends if you have a penchant for Creamy Turds in Scum Sauce.

[oakleaves]

...and now I'm thoroughly depressed

[oakleaves]

nfc212, on 09 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Depends if you have a penchant for Creamy Turds in Scum Sauce.

I don't. Do you?

[nfc212]

oakleaves, on 09 February 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

I don't. Do you?

Too rich for me and I've become a little Lactose intolerant lately.

Never know though might catch on in some parts of Westminster.

[Script©]

I know someone that started a web design service, all he did was build the sites on wix and yola and stuff like that and charge £25...

[Garner Designs]

Myspace layouts are much to blame... Made all my friends in middle school think that they were real web designers... Even made some 16 year old girl rich.

[Grombleton]

Newbie here. Hello etc.

I've been working for an agency for 3 years and the amount of people i've bumped into saying they are 'web designers', when all they have to their skill base is a copy of Photoshop, is staggering. My knowledge of web is ok but definitely needs improvement (like others ive seen in this thread, i can muddle through things like PHP but wouldnt dare put that as a skill base).
I think in this day in age, and with the current climate, it's more about finding a niche - i'm looking to set up on my own with a strong leaning to using web and social media for local businesses....a bit of a saturated market but i believe i've got the knowledge to get ahead of the other so-called 'gurus' (if anyone actually uses the word 'guru' i will punch them).

I think the web age has to adapt - most businesses now look at the PRICE of a website and not the VALUE of the workmanship of how it was put together (they dont care if the UX has been taken into consideration, as long as it looks good and has fluffy kittens on it). There's ways to keep afloat, just a base of being flexible.

Incoherent post: finished. Expect more at a later date.

[JustOliver]

So I really wanted to put something on here from the perspective of someone relatively new to the game, I've only ever dabbled myself but would really like to make a go of it this year. However, I've never been to Uni, barely scraped any A-Levels and have been cocking about not doing a naff CIW course for the past two years. I've just finished quite a rambling introductory post if you want to hear more from this irritating newcomer. Ideally I'd just have copy and pasted that here, but I won't.

Does anybody reading this have a relevant professional qualification? Do you think going to Uni helps just because it proves you are at a similar level academically to everyone else who managed to complete university?? Has every job you've gone for in the industry only been interested in your portfolio or are they just as keen to see what certificates you've got (maybe got a 10m swimming one knocking about somewhere) Or what I'd really like to know is does anybody here have no qualifications at all and is still managing to make a living from web design? Bet that caused a fair bit of eye rolling lol Cheers people.

[MikeChipshop]

99% of 'professional qualifications' for web design are total pish. The vast majority of the users on here do not have a relevant qualification.
My advice would be if you wanted to go to uni and do a course that would help then do something like bookmaking or business.

[4colourprogress]

Yeah I'd say if you were more into the back end work of web development then doing something like computer science at uni would be a big help but there aren't really any equivalent courses for web designers. The role of the designer is to take, understand & fulfil a clients briefs, a course can't teach you how to do this only experience can.

[NoClass]

JustOliver, on 13 February 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Or what I'd really like to know is does anybody here have no qualifications at all and is still managing to make a living from web design?

I have a GCSE B Art, GCSE E Maths ... um that's it! I make enough to keep the wolves at bay, freelance it's down to portfolio but PAYE applications they often want a degree which is fair play but a fresh out of uni with a degree vs commercial experience for 10 years it's down the the recruiter to decide (not knocking uni grads). I think uni would have made me a more rounded designer (possibly) but the commercial side taught me more about time and budget vs finished article ... something you only learn from getting burnt on a few jobs.

oakleaves, on 09 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

And what about people who set up 'agencies' who do not know or even attempt to know about the business but instead pay people peanuts on elance and people per hour to do the work that they land and keep the big mark-up (goodness knows how they land the clients in the first place)

Even people like Yell sell SEO 'packages' ... check this recent email from Yell.com (typos are real!). They want to sell to my client.

"As discussed we can put you in the sponsered listings at the top of google with 8 bullit points linking through to your website. This is a four month trial where google will call you the first day the advert goes live, again half way through the four months & again at the end to give you a permomance plan of your call & clicks. On month five the offer for Febuary is that they will refund you the five months money so in effect this month is free. After the five month if you wish to stay on it is the same cost £39 plus vat payable each month. You go live two weeks from the date it is booked 7 once it is booked you will receive an email with confirmation on what has been agreed."

Can anyone work out what they are actually selling? Hahaha

This post has been edited by NoClass: 13 February 2012 - 09:02 AM

[nfc212]

NoClass, on 13 February 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Can anyone work out what they are actually selling? Hahaha

Not clear at all is it?

One thing that really annoys me is where you see designers sites that are riddled with spelling mistakes and errors in grammar. The number of times you click onto a site and there is a glaring grocer's apostrophe is unbelievable.

Another is using "ie" after a "c":

e.g. "Once we recieve your deposit...."

[Glowbridge]

Quote

Another is using "ie" after a "c"

cie words outnumber cei words in the English language by a factor of 21 to 1. Not that it forgives spelling mistakes but as a rule I before E, except after C is about as inaccurate as it gets.

There is an ancient scientific society that does sufficient research in species.

[Renaissance-Design]

JustOliver, on 13 February 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

Or what I'd really like to know is does anybody here have no qualifications at all and is still managing to make a living from web design?

That would be me. Last qualifications I got were a couple of ropey A Levels 15 years ago. I'm a fulltime freelancer.

[MikeChipshop]

Glowbridge, on 13 February 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

cie words outnumber cei words in the English language by a factor of 21 to 1. Not that it forgives spelling mistakes but as a rule I before E, except after C is about as inaccurate as it gets.

There is an ancient scientific society that does sufficient research in species.

Exactly.
I before E except after C. Another 'Fact' disproven by 'Science'

Renaissance-Design, on 13 February 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

That would be me. Last qualifications I got were a couple of ropey A Levels 15 years ago. I'm a fulltime freelancer.

I'll join your team there Chris.
I've got a National degree in the performing arts, i'm a full time freelance web designer

[oakleaves]

Renaissance-Design, on 13 February 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

That would be me. Last qualifications I got were a couple of ropey A Levels 15 years ago. I'm a fulltime freelancer.

MikeChipshop, on 13 February 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

I'll join your team there Chris.
I've got a National degree in the performing arts, i'm a full time freelance web designer

I've got a masters degree from the School of Hard Knocks

[Renaissance-Design]

MikeChipshop, on 13 February 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

Exactly.
I before E except after C. Another 'Fact' disproven by 'Science'

[NoClass]

oakleaves, on 13 February 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

I've got a masters degree from the School of Hard Knocks

School of Hard Knocks *does a little hip hop shuffle*