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Are too many people trying to get a career in web design/development?


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I maintain that only works in commodity or service industries. If the client has no idea what the hell they are talking about then their judgement of what the correct final outcome is, is meaningless.

 

I'll try and pin down where it is we disagree. I think you view the payment as payment for the completed website, a set of ticked boxes. I do not. Payment is for your time, it's to retain your ability/knowledge/experience for -X- amount of hours and use it towards a beneficial outcome. You don't get paid because the client saw a slider and wanted one, you get paid to educate them on why that is a good or bad idea and to do what is best for them based on your judgement. You get paid to make informed decisions on their behalf and I think when you accept these insisting lowball clients who don't give a damn about any of that and just want a job done you devalue your own expertise. You are essentially sending the message that your input is optional, which is absurd when you are the sole hired in expert.

 

I think we quite easily equate to lawyers. You don't really pay a lawyer to win a specific outcome for you. You don't walk in with £500 and say I'll pay you this if you get me off this murder charge in this way. It's not a traditional customer/business relationship. You go in saying "I want this situation to be better for me, you know how to make that happen.. how much?". Even though you are giving them money they are the ones with the power in this negotiation, they are the ones who have what you need.

 

Of course there are economic matters at play. Of course you need to position yourself competitively and attractively and pay the bills but I think it's very dangerous to start switching power to the clients and treating what we do like mindless grunt work.

 

If you order a loft conversion do you need an intricate knowledge of how to do it? No. You get someone in to do it because you either don't have the time or more likely don't have enough knowledge to do it yourself.

 

It is exactly the same principle. The customer most probably hires in services because they have no idea how to do it themselves.

 

90% of what any business does is mindless, tedious grunt work. But that is the bread and butter jobs that pay the majority of bills. Occasionally a job comes along that rekindles that spark of initial enthusiasm but they seem fewer and farther between.

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Skimped on the underlay?

 

Underlay be buggered, I'm thinking of prising it up to see if there is a skating rink below it. I'm scared to touch it with my bare hand in case it freezes to it.

 

I didn't put it in by the way it was here when we came here. There are urban myths about people freezing to death on these floors after passing out on them.

Edited by nfc212
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Underlay be buggered, I'm thinking of prising it up to see if there is a skating rink below it. I'm scared to touch it with my bare hand in case it freezes to it.

 

I didn't put it in by the way it was here when we came here. There are urban myths about people freezing to death on these floors after passing out on them.

 

While I remember, fancy a pint and an argument sometime? I'm in Bridgend, always good to catch up with local folks.

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If you order a loft conversion do you need an intricate knowledge of how to do it? No. You get someone in to do it because you either don't have the time or more likely don't have enough knowledge to do it yourself.

 

It is exactly the same principle. The customer most probably hires in services because they have no idea how to do it themselves.

 

Is this meant to disagree with me? because I don't think it's working.

 

I can't say I can see a non-cowboy builder doing a £200 version of a loft conversion when to do it properly would cost £1000. Can you?

 

Doesn't the blame lie with the person who knows what they are talking about? If I insist on a £200 loft conversion and my roof caves in is not the builders fault for not refusing to take my unworkable offer? Surely you don't think it's the customers fault for being cheap? They don't know any better.

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I must admit I played Devil's Advocate a little here. :)

 

It was funny how this subject came up like it did as it had been something on my mind all week.

 

Whilst I don't disagree with what you said about some clients (I know, I've had them too) I refuse to change and become somebody I don't like because of it.

 

So yes, what you do is up to you, but as for me I am going to stay true to myself and give the client the best I can - regardless. If it means that I miss out on some of the cheaper market, so be it.

Edited by oakleaves
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It was funny how this subject came up like it did as it had been something on my mind all week.

 

Whilst I don't disagree with what you said about some clients (I know, I've had them too) I refuse to change and become somebody I don't like because of it.

 

So yes, what you do is up to you, but as for me I am going to stay true to myself and give the client the best I can - regardless. If it means that I miss out on some of the cheaper market, so be it.

 

No need to miss out on any of the market.

 

Offer a range of packages ranging from the bargain basement right up to the super deluxe all singing and dancing version.

 

Give the client the benefit of your opinion and advice but at the end of the day it is their choice and not yours.

 

That is not compromising on ideals or principles it is simply business. If you can make a decent living churning out brochure sites for small tradesmen don't knock it, do it.

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No need to miss out on any of the market.

 

Offer a range of packages ranging from the bargain basement right up to the super deluxe all singing and dancing version.

 

Give the client the benefit of your opinion and advice but at the end of the day it is their choice and not yours.

 

That is not compromising on ideals or principles it is simply business. If you can make a decent living churning out brochure sites for small tradesmen don't knock it, do it.

 

Hmm I may well do something along those lines.

 

Maybe it would need a seperate website that dealt with it, rather than having one site that tried to be all things to everyone.

 

The USP could be that the quality was still there, but think of a way in which to offer an affordable entry level website that was still light years ahead of the yells*ite and 1&1 stuff.

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Hmm I may well do something along those lines.

 

Maybe it would need a seperate website that dealt with it, rather than having one site that tried to be all things to everyone.

 

The USP could be that the quality was still there, but think of a way in which to offer an affordable entry level website that was still light years ahead of the yells*ite and 1&1 stuff.

 

That's the idea. Many companies have one section for top of the range and another for economy. Look at a lot of car companies. Why should web design be any different?

 

Cater for all.

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These are not difficult concepts to grasp.

 

If you run a web design business it is no different to running a garage, a building firm or any other business. The same basic principles of supply and demand apply.

 

Why do you think the likes of Branson and Sugar are so successful in whatever venture they undertake? They apply the same basic principles to each industry sector they move into. No mucking about learning what the clientele want, they convince the clientele that what they are offering is what they want.

 

It is also offered in a wide range of packages, in order to winkle the last sov from the pockets of rich and poor alike.

 

Like it or not that is how it works. To work for yourself and succeed at it requires an element of ruthlessness. If you don't want to do it your competitors will, and there is nothing as ruthless as a self-employed bailiff banging on your door. And I did that back in the 80's recession. No mercy or pity was shown there, all you had to leave them was the clothes they stood in and a table with a chair each.

 

The best job I ever had was as a rat inspector. That was fun. :)

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Sugar

 

Alan Sugar is just a market trader that made it big.

 

He's only ever done the same thing but now does it on a much bigger scale.

 

I don't want to known as the Alan Sugar of web design..

 

AMSWeb.. doesn't quite work.

 

I would rather be something along the lines of Bang and Olufsen, a type of quality that Sugar does not even comprehend.

Edited by oakleaves
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Alan Sugar is just a market trader that made it big.

 

He's only ever done the same thing but now does it on a much bigger scale.

 

Tesco are the same. He started as a barrow boy selling off the bananas that had over ripened on the Fyffes boats. Became The Empire Stores and then Tesco

 

I don't want to known as the Alan Sugar of web design..

 

AMSWeb.. doesn't quite work.

 

How about SweetWeb ? You can feel that one on the tip of your tongue. :)

 

I would rather be something along the lines of Bang and Olufsen, a type of quality that Sugar does not even comprehend.

 

Bang & Olufsen. They were the ones that did those vertical record decks that had the linear tracking arm. I remember a shop up by the fly-over that were main dealers for them. God they were expensive though. I used to have a second hand B&O 4-track reel to reel, damn thing weighed a ton. Cracking sound on recording the band though. Blasted switch in it went and I couldn't get a spare.

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Im jumping in here after just skipping pages of content, so sorry for doing that, but some times I think people on this site are a bit elitist, no one owns the internet by the way, competition is good because it means an expanding industry.

 

My problem is there is no real pricing structures laid out. no industry standard fee's, and with companies like 1&1 offering websites for FREE, i mean come on, its not the new designers you want to worry about, its these bigger companies trying to find ways to cut out the web guy altogether.

 

I mean hell, there is templates at the top of this forum advertised for £3 quid, the problem is this makes it very difficult for designers to charge a correct fee, without some one else guzumping you massively.

 

We all got to eat, but the WWW standards should work harder at supporting the industry when it comes to us dealing with clients and having set standards to work to as guidelines.

 

Im constantly having to educate my clients, otherwise they think every job takes seconds and they dont want to pay me for my time, like Im sat there twiddling my thumbs trying to rip them off.

 

Going back to the original subject, its not fair to put any negativity on to young people trying to make a career move, the world is pretty messed up right now, its hard for anyone to make the right choice now, I mean ****, now we are being told dont go to uni, its not worth the fee's, if this is true, then how are young people supposed to become a web designer.

 

Nothing is easy for anyone, thats life I suppose, so live and let live.

 

T

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...Going back to the original subject, its not fair to put any negativity on to young people trying to make a career move, the world is pretty messed up right now, its hard for anyone to make the right choice now, I mean ****, now we are being told dont go to uni, its not worth the fee's, if this is true, then how are young people supposed to become a web designer.

 

Nothing is easy for anyone, thats life I suppose, so live and let live.

 

I see what you're saying, and I agree that we shouldn't discourage new blood in the web design industry, but the problem is a lot of the people (not necessarily young people) who hear about a designer making $10,000 for a month's work and decide to jump into a career they don't understand.

 

When these people don't understand the industry they do things like produce crappy work, charge third-world prices for their services and generally give clients the impression that we are hacks, charlatans or people out to take advantage of them. The sad part is this is the exact opposite of what a good designer is. We are supposed to be experts at what we do, and the relationships we have with our clients shouldn't be about milking their wallet but advising and helping them on how to best achieve their goals on the web.

 

That's what will cause harm to our industry, not a talented student who wants to learn web design and goes about it correctly.

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Hi Tobes,

 

I get a virus warning when I visit your footer sig links.. Just thought I'd give you a 'heads up'

 

Your getting a virus warning from that, blimey, at least this might help me find the code thats broken my forum today then, sorry about that, let me check that now :(

 

Tobes

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Im jumping in here after just skipping pages of content, so sorry for doing that, but some times I think people on this site are a bit elitist, no one owns the internet by the way, competition is good because it means an expanding industry.

 

My problem is there is no real pricing structures laid out. no industry standard fee's, and with companies like 1&1 offering websites for FREE, i mean come on, its not the new designers you want to worry about, its these bigger companies trying to find ways to cut out the web guy altogether.

 

I mean hell, there is templates at the top of this forum advertised for £3 quid, the problem is this makes it very difficult for designers to charge a correct fee, without some one else guzumping you massively.

 

We all got to eat, but the WWW standards should work harder at supporting the industry when it comes to us dealing with clients and having set standards to work to as guidelines.

 

Im constantly having to educate my clients, otherwise they think every job takes seconds and they dont want to pay me for my time, like Im sat there twiddling my thumbs trying to rip them off.

 

Going back to the original subject, its not fair to put any negativity on to young people trying to make a career move, the world is pretty messed up right now, its hard for anyone to make the right choice now, I mean ****, now we are being told dont go to uni, its not worth the fee's, if this is true, then how are young people supposed to become a web designer.

 

Nothing is easy for anyone, thats life I suppose, so live and let live.

 

T

 

Another side of the coin, but careful, I don't think anybody in this thread is being elitist.

 

I don't think you really go back to any of my original points either, because I certainly wasn't putting "negativity" on young people - I'm a young person myself.

 

My core point is that in my honest opinion, too many young people are mistakenly seeing web work to be more glamorous and fruit-bearing than it really is. They often seem to not realise how difficult it is to do it properly, and some get into it and do the job in a very bad way - i.e. making sites out of templates and claiming them as bespoke, or worse, making atrocious crap on WIX and having the cheek to sell it.

 

My other points were a critique of the learning process that most most people go through to get into this subject area. I quote myself:

 

"A lot of people seem to think all web development/design consists of is HTML/CSS/PHP with a bit of Photoshop thrown in. Not enough design principles, not enough solid programming knowledge, not enough specialisation. Too many people are a bit "skitz" with it all and just jump from one thing to another without learning it properly and thoroughly."

 

At no point am I directly blaming young people, in fact, many of these issues are probably caused by the older generation and the generally **** state of IT education in the UK. And no, I don't think Michael Gove's ideas are the solution either.

Edited by brightonmike
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I think a lot of people have raised a lot of very valid point on this thread (and some that are not quite as valid).

 

I do feel though that this has a very negative tone to the thread and to be fair to Tobes I do see his point that things are hard enough anyway without other getting on peoples back and making things even tougher.

 

We all know the problems, what people need are more solutions, and more of a positive outlook, and encouragement.

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I would say that a four page thread where pretty much every member of the site has been involved in a discussion about a subject that is obviously of big importance to all of us is a massively positive step forward.

 

Issues need highlighting sometimes, regardless of individual opinions.

Edited by brightonmike
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I would say that a four page thread where pretty much every member of the site has been involved in a discussion about a subject that is obviously of big importance to all of us is a massively positive step forward.

 

ah, well said.

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Something like designing small web sites will always look attractive to many.

 

They don't need a huge amount of coding knowledge to set up a four page static brochure site, just a few free templates or even nick a layout with a website copier and away they go. Change the content and images and 99.9999999% of the time who'll be the wiser.

 

As a business, whether full or part time it must look quite attractive, Low initial outlay, low running costs and overheads, no fleet of vehicles, no stock holding or premises costs.

 

Someone can quite easily start up from the living room, all they need is a PC and a telephone.

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Something like designing small web sites will always look attractive to many.

 

They don't need a huge amount of coding knowledge to set up a four page static brochure site, just a few free templates or even nick a layout with a website copier and away they go. Change the content and images and 99.9999999% of the time who'll be the wiser.

 

As a business, whether full or part time it must look quite attractive, Low initial outlay, low running costs and overheads, no fleet of vehicles, no stock holding or premises costs.

 

Someone can quite easily start up from the living room, all they need is a PC and a telephone.

 

 

That will get you so far - but only so far. You're never going to make a lot of money doing that. If you're charging £200 to make a simple website, you've got to be banging in 2 a week, every week, 52 weeks of the year, to earn anything close to what I do.

 

That's 104 websites. Every year. That has then got to be sustainable, year in, year out.

 

Not only that, but to get those 104 clients you're going to have to spend hundreds if not thousands on marketing - which I don't, and those who freelance the proper way won't have to spend as much either because their projects are bigger and have a higher return.

 

And I'm still learning, but the proper way.

 

So yes, someone could do it the way you suggested. But going the proper route has earned me a lot more money and given me solid, reliable income that a noob sat at in their living room on a laptop with a dodgy copy of Photoshop and some naff off Vistaprint flyers couldn't dream of.

Edited by brightonmike
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I wouldn't be surprised if a large proportion of the web design businesses in the UK are actually part-timers. People making a supplemental income.

 

Some are not that cheap either. Some years ago a friend of mine was charged £500 to have one of his flyers scanned and a Dynamic Drive menu stuck at the top. The form didn't work properly and the SEO consisted of loads of hidden links back to the designers site and sites of some of his muckers.

 

In the minds of many what I said above is true. They look at it and think, "Gawd, that's easy and little outlay".

 

As everything gets more expensive and pay rates go down expect more to jump on anything they see as a means to a little easy extra cash.

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If someone wants to do that then I don't care. I just don't think they're qualified to be calling themselves "designers" or "developers" when their grasp of either area is so limited they might as well cut off their own arms.

 

:lol:

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If someone wants to do that then I don't care. I just don't think they're qualified to be calling themselves "designers" or "developers" when their grasp of either area is so limited they might as well cut off their own arms.

 

Ah, but they all think they're experts. Or they just don't give a toss, and why should they when the most limited tosspots in the country are running it?

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............... they might as well cut off their own arms.

 

How does someone cut off their arms? You could cut one off but how do you cut the other one off.

 

Answers on a post card please. :)

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How does someone cut off their arms? You could cut one off but how do you cut the other one off.

 

Answers on a post card please. :)

 

It would be pretty easy with a helicopter. Or a wide variety of industrial tool, methinks.

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It would be pretty easy with a helicopter. Or a wide variety of industrial tool, methinks.

 

True, but not things most people have daily access to. I was thinking more along the lines of everyday items you may have around the house, chainsaw, woodsaw, bread knife, can opener.

 

You could take one off quite easily but once you cut through the tendons and ligaments on the other it would stop working.

 

Suppose you might be able to chew the rest of the way through.

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Actually laughed aloud at how this thread has descended into a debate as to how best to sever both ones arms simultaneously.

 

I vote for the jumping into a cage filled with hungry wolves with meat strapped to your arms option.

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