nfc212 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 yes but whether they agree is another matter. Hardly good for customer relations? Start out with an insult? If they are that insulted they won't become a customer and there won't be a relationship. At the end of the day I don't want to form a relationship with the customer, I want to form a relationship with their wallets. Be it a brief fling or a long, clandestine affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 yes but whether they agree is another matter. Hardly good for customer relations? Start out with an insult? Obviously you don't walk up to them and say "Oi mate, your sites sh*t". You've got to have a certain sense of decorum and business manners. What I did when I first moved was to approach local businesses with less than great websites and I got quite a lot of work out of it and the rest has been word of mouth from them. I done what I think is the best in this situation and dropped in to their offices personally for a chat and a cuppa (and occasionally a nice whisky). That's the human touch people crave and you're far more likely to get a good business friendship going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4colourprogress Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think for a lot of people it's simply an easy option now as anyone can make basic websites in dreamweaver and call themselves designers. For most though they will probably not get very far once they see how competitive and hardwork it really is. A lot of it comes down to patience as well I think, many people will give up simply because they feel like they aren't getting it or just got lazy. I know this because I'm exactly the same, always hopping from one idea to another and never seeing anything through the end, will I with this web design / development stuff? No idea... but I'll give it a bloody good shot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) I think certain success stories and certain web personalities don't help matters. There was an 18 year old on the news a while back who created an iOS app which has received backing from an Indian Businessman. When interviewed, he was ridiculously laid back and casual and he just made what he had achieved look absurdly easy. "Well I just had this idea and made the app and now I've got £10,000 investment". In a single news report, he managed, whether he meant to or not, completely de-value the whole thing and make it look like any old Larry could do it. He was obviously talented and had done well but just because it was easy for him, it doesn't mean it would be for anybody else. Edited February 1, 2012 by brightonmike CreativeShelf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think for a lot of people it's simply an easy option now as anyone can make basic websites in dreamweaver and call themselves designers. For most though they will probably not get very far once they see how competitive and hardwork it really is. Thing is though that many are doing quite nicely and don't use Dreamweaver or even a WYSIWYG editor, they simply use the free templates supplied by web hosts like Heart. Many download and use the free templates from places like Templatemo. The client has no idea. If the client had any idea of web design/development they would be doing it themselves. A lot of these people succeed because they are in the right circles and work simply drops into their laps through a friend of a friend of a friend. Nothing to do with talent or knowledge. I've come across designers offering sites at £10 a page recently. I found one a while ago that offered a 10 page site with hosting and a domain name for £70. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreativeShelf Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 BrightonMike, I totally agree with you. It was about 1 year ago when I started seeing that every man and his dog can now make a website. It angers me to hear that people call themselves web designers when all they've done is set up a website on a templated system using a ready-made template - I just don't understand. It's likes everything in this world. The more its available, the less its worth - like the Japanese currency. I absolutely LOVE doing web design, I would do it for the rest of my life. My only option to live, however, is to work at another job (which I enjoy as much as Web Design) and look for work in my spare time trying to market DesignWebUK a bit more. It is almost impossible to launch a new company and gain a good stable revenue then move into an office and be in your dream job - the MD of a stable web design company. It seems there is 1 in 9 people in the UK who choose web design/development as a career option. It's very unfortunate, with respect to everyone in this industry, but there is no room left for another web designer. Many thanks, Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensha Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Yab there are to many of those people around. I see many peoples who stops at CSS because PHP/MySQL seems to be to difficult. It was aqtually the point of difficult that I continued to study. Doing something that only a few people can do would be awesome but it takes a long time to study. Now a days a lot of companies as so-called webdevolpers use cms. I treid CMS a couple of times but it isn't mine piece of cake. I like to take the hardcore road and code things mine own way. There are a load of vacany for webdevolpers but you would need to have the true coding skills required and not just cms and a basic PHP/MySQL. I still see vanacies for around €3500 - €4000,- as start salary. Edit; June is almost mine second year in learning web devolpment. Edited February 1, 2012 by kensha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesosix Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Fair play James, but my point was meant to come across, not aimed at people who build sites for family etc... but people who actively market themselves as BACKEND experts just because they know how to do a rough theme for WP. As I mentioned, I use wordpress almost exclusively, because I love how customisable it is - so it wasn't meant to be a wordpress bashing session Leave my precious wordpress alone! lol. TBH that is a fair point. People really do go overboard on their actual skills, but dont forget - you gotta always sell yourself. I market myself as a web consultant....jack of all trades and master of none (as you can tell by my thread history ) And if people are doing it for the riches, well they will be in for a huge shock. I work for a wb marketing company and I am on little over minimum wage. Granted if the work I do pays off and the company really succeed I will be in for pay rises etc, but it doesn't just come to you, you gotta work hard, adapt and commit yourself relentlessly. edit: It does annoy me how companies want an-all-in-one person. They wont just have committed front end/ui designers AND back end developers, to save money and make more profit, so its their fault really that people try and learn everything, rather than being a specialist in one area. Edited February 1, 2012 by jamesosix CreativeShelf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Leave my precious wordpress alone! lol. TBH that is a fair point. People really do go overboard on their actual skills, but dont forget - you gotta always sell yourself. I market myself as a web consultant....jack of all trades and master of none (as you can tell by my thread history ) And if people are doing it for the riches, well they will be in for a huge shock. I work for a wb marketing company and I am on little over minimum wage. Granted if the work I do pays off and the company really succeed I will be in for pay rises etc, but it doesn't just come to you, you gotta work hard, adapt and commit yourself relentlessly. edit: It does annoy me how companies want an-all-in-one person. They wont just have committed front end/ui designers AND back end developers, to save money and make more profit, so its their fault really that people try and learn everything, rather than being a specialist in one area. I personally think a little over minimum wage is the other extreme! Is that a salary or per hour? You should be on much better than that. I dispute your last comment though about companies wanting an all-in-one person. Like it or not, for small businesses in particular that is simply a case of economics. No point you getting annoyed at companies about it, they're feeling the squeeze. Not really their fault. Edited February 1, 2012 by brightonmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I dispute your last comment though about companies wanting an all-in-one person. Like it or not, for small businesses in particular that is simply a case of economics. No point you getting annoyed at companies about it, they're feeling the squeeze. Not really their fault. Yes, I'm afraid when it comes to making economies the only realistic option for a business is to shed staff. That is the quickest way to cut the deficit and puts a smirk on the face of the bank manager. The plus side for the bank is that every job lost is a fat profit on a repossessed house a couple of months down the line. The down side for the businesses is that every job lost is another potential customer lost. You can't buy much with £50 a week dole. Also remember that the "government" is introducing a compulsory works pension scheme later this year which will add thousands to even a small wage bill. Many smaller employers and quite a few medium sized ones are now seriously considering laying off their staff wholesale and re-employing on a self-employed basis. They are responsible for their own pensions then and can also be offered below minimum wage. I've seen self-employed opportunities on Gumtree for as little as £2.50 per hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snicket Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Sorry i dont agree with you, i respect your opinion but do not agree. I am 18 and have been learning web design for 4/5 years now (HTML/CSS/PHP). In no way should ANYBODY think that webdesign is easy, its not. Designing it is the hard bit for me as i am fairly good at building it. i do agree that PHP takes years to master and become fluent as such but all it takes is time and commitment, i have learnt ALOT in my 4/5 years but still only a fraction of what their really is too learn, i wish every young web designer the best of luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Sorry i dont agree with you, i respect your opinion but do not agree. I am 18 and have been learning web design for 4/5 years now (HTML/CSS/PHP). In no way should ANYBODY think that webdesign is easy, its not. Designing it is the hard bit for me as i am fairly good at building it. i do agree that PHP takes years to master and become fluent as such but all it takes is time and commitment, i have learnt ALOT in my 4/5 years but still only a fraction of what their really is too learn, i wish every young web designer the best of luck... Who are you disagreeing with? If you mean me, your comments then go on to pretty much agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodephdesign Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'm not sure whether or not too many people are "trying to get a career in web design", but I can tell you for damn sure that too many people are succeeding in getting a career in web design when they shouldn't. Since becoming a full time web developer I've seen some really shocking excuses for websites that people seem to just think is the standard. And customers just seem to throw money at them for the very little effort they put in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesosix Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I personally think a little over minimum wage is the other extreme! Is that a salary or per hour? You should be on much better than that. I dispute your last comment though about companies wanting an all-in-one person. Like it or not, for small businesses in particular that is simply a case of economics. No point you getting annoyed at companies about it, they're feeling the squeeze. Not really their fault. Thats a salary - 12.5k per annum. With 28 days holiday in total. Mon-Fri 9 - 5.30 with 45 mins for dinner. I know its a low wage, and tbh I am that multi person we are talking about. I have to create new sites, manage seo for said sites and other sites, link build and soon I will be learning the adwords ropes. I took the job knowing its a pretty low paying job, but my previous job was working in a clothes shop, were they only gave me 10 hours a week. My take home back then was around £200 a month. This way I am doing something I really enjoy and earning that wage in a week...So i cant complain. I also have full faith that my boss will reward us with either a good bonus or a suitable pay rise should the sites we are working convert customers well. I understand its all about economics, but still...that is the reason people sell themselves as good at x y and z, when in truth they are probably only good at x, or y, or z. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Is that after or before tax? How long have you been in the job? If I was you I'd be asking for a pay rise after 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesosix Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Is that after or before tax? How long have you been in the job? If I was you I'd be asking for a pay rise after 6 months. been in the job since sept 11 and thats before tax. I plan on seeing how the sites we are working on go and if they end up being a success ill be the first to knock on my bosses door - other issues are present though...like staff that are on the same wage who have been here since day 1. Besides I also work on other 'personal' stuff just to bump my average income up a bit. Anyway... Thread derailed! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porkchops Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Thats a salary - 12.5k per annum. With 28 days holiday in total. Mon-Fri 9 - 5.30 with 45 mins for dinner. I know its a low wage, and tbh I am that multi person we are talking about. I have to create new sites, manage seo for said sites and other sites, link build and soon I will be learning the adwords ropes. I took the job knowing its a pretty low paying job, but my previous job was working in a clothes shop, were they only gave me 10 hours a week. My take home back then was around £200 a month. This way I am doing something I really enjoy and earning that wage in a week...So i cant complain. I also have full faith that my boss will reward us with either a good bonus or a suitable pay rise should the sites we are working convert customers well. I understand its all about economics, but still...that is the reason people sell themselves as good at x y and z, when in truth they are probably only good at x, or y, or z. Ouch, that's a rough income to live on. That's barely 20k USD and around here that would be below the poverty line. If you have such a robust skillset it seems like you could ask for (and you probably deserve) a raise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Ouch, that's a rough income to live on. That's barely 20k USD and around here that would be below the poverty line. If you have such a robust skillset it seems like you could ask for (and you probably deserve) a raise. Around here they're eating their neighbours cats and dogs. £12.5K per annum would be heaven too many. Wonder how many thought that when B'liar introduced the minimum wage that in a few short years they would be on it. A bricklayer friend was on £17.00 an hour a few years ago, he's on about £3.50 an hour self employed now. The government will need to borrow around £1 million a day this year to pay the public sector workers salaries and pensions. As more private sector businesses vanish more will jump on the bandwagon. However as these businesses go the pool of potential clients diminishes with it. Many industrial estates are virtually deserted and all those empty units means there are no businesses in them clucking for a web site. Many smaller retail businesses are also up for sale, the owners just trying to get something and then get out. Most of these have allowed their sites to just expire. No point having a domain name when the new owners may want to use a different name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porkchops Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 [scary stuff] My sympathies, UK brethren. I didn't realize how crummy the economy is over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 My sympathies, UK brethren. I didn't realize how crummy the economy is over there. Don't worry the government don't seem to either. They blithely carry on as if nothing is going wrong, incompetent turds. Unless they don't care, in which case that would make them traitorous turds. I had to chuckle at Dave "hug a banker" Cameron last week when he said Europe should cut down on red tape. His rabble of a cabinet has continued B'liar's daily output of red tape unabated. Last major manufacturing industry we have here is red tape. Pity we can't find some markets abroad for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonychang Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 So I'm trying to post this hopefully without offending anyone. But, I have a few negative thoughts regarding "the web" as a career choice. 2. Competition for jobs is intensifying, rapidly. Yes, the web is a vastly expanding industry but right now there are not the jobs to match that. There are not enough, not even close to enough, jobs out there to match the sheer number of people trying their hand at web development. Not in the UK anyhow. 3. A lot of people seem to think all web development/design consists of is HTML/CSS/PHP with a bit of Photoshop thrown in. Not enough design principles, not enough solid programming knowledge, not enough specialisation. Too many people are a bit "skitz" with it all and just jump from one thing to another without learning it properly and thoroughly. It takes years for example to become an expert PHP programmer. You're not qualified to say you can write PHP because you spent two weeks learning a few tutorials. 4. I think a lot of young people are seeing the web as an easy career option. It's a default fallback if all else fails. I particularly come to this conclusion based on a lot of thread I've seen on here. Things like "Well I suppose I thought I should have a go" or "I don't know what else to study so I was thinking of doing web development". You really think it's that easy? Attitudes like this devalue the industry. It's like the new beauty therapy, "Well I can't do anything else". So....am I right? Do you agree? Am I being too controversial, or even offensive? 2. You wanna try getting a job at the moment in another industry especially unskilled! Wages for designers and developers are on the up. 3.If you can knock out relatively cheap small business sites weekly, do what the punters ask for, sod the design principles,they wouldnt understand them anyway. You should be much better off and happier than any tesco's shelf stacker. 4.Compared to any other skilled industry there is so much readily available info for you to learn that cost you nowt, you certainly dont need to go to college! 20 years ago if you wanted to be a designer I'd imagine you'd want a graphic design degree (where else would you get access to tutorials and decent influence?) and a mac with quark would cost you the equvalent of a downpayment on a house. Nowadays all you need is a 400 quid laptop and a moody copy of photoshop/coding software. Granted if you are useless c**t who's only passion is playing video games "No,games programming aint as easy or as fun as playing them" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakleaves Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I think certain success stories and certain web personalities don't help matters. There was an 18 year old on the news a while back who created an iOS app which has received backing from an Indian Businessman. When interviewed, he was ridiculously laid back and casual and he just made what he had achieved look absurdly easy. "Well I just had this idea and made the app and now I've got £10,000 investment". In a single news report, he managed, whether he meant to or not, completely de-value the whole thing and make it look like any old Larry could do it. He was obviously talented and had done well but just because it was easy for him, it doesn't mean it would be for anybody else. What about this kid then? http://www.indiegogo.com/Infection-2 Not bad for a 10year old huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Dexter Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Not really read this thread in depth but this is the reason why I've changed the direction of my business and the work and services that I promote. I can't compete, design and development wise, with a somebody who offers a ****ter product but for a lot less money. It was mentioned that if you can do a design that meets the punters needs, sod the design principles. This is what I compete with around here. I could provide a better design and coding job, it just took me a lot longer. Clients would often say they could get their mates son to do it for 50 quid and in half the time. So I started to push SEO as my main service and its the best thing I ever did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakleaves Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 3.If you can knock out relatively cheap small business sites weekly, do what the punters ask for, sod the design principles,they wouldnt understand them anyway. You should be much better off and happier than any tesco's shelf stacker. I have been quite dispondent this week and a large part of it is to do with what you have just said here. It seems that there's loads of web design companies out there making pots of cash who are happy to do this very thing. My wifes colleague wanted to know how much I would charge to make her a website. Another company had already made a mockup for her and when I looked at it my first thought was that it wasn't great. Then I looked at the source code and realised they had just bought a theme from themeforest (not one of the better ones either) and stuck a new logo and different images on. They've charged her £300 for was is essentially a $30 template and 10mins work. I am sure one day she will realise that it's crap, but as of today she really likes it. I'm pretty sure they have not told her it was from a template. She wanted to know how much I would charge for something similar, and I would have charged more money because I wanted to make something unique that was of a very good standard. So I lost out on price. But how do you explain to somebody that your service is better when they do not understand or care about design principles, valid HTML, or know the difference between a good website and a poor one? etc etc etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 What about this kid then? http://www.indiegogo.com/Infection-2 Not bad for a 10year old huh? Probably a 35 year old conman. Problem with the net, they can be anything they want, wherever they want. You won't find out until they've finished wringing out your bank account. I remember the story of a British postman who was taken for a ride by a bird in the USA. Rinsed his account till it was almost dry. The Bird was in fact a bloke in Nigeria. He was then contacted by a solicitor who said that the same hoax had been perpetrated on his clients and he was mounting a lawsuit to retrieve the cash. So he gave him what he had left. Turned out it was the same bloody conman. Sod this web design lark, I might just sign up to some Royal Mail chat rooms and pretend to be some lonely bird from Kentucky. Think I'll pop over to People of Walmart and get into character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But how do you explain to somebody that your service is better when they do not understand or care about design principles, valid HTML, or know the difference between a good website and a poor one? etc etc etc.. Something about nails getting hit on the head.... You're bang on Oak. But the fact is, this is something that has happened many, many times. Web Design is not the first ever new industry, plenty have come before it and had the same difficulties. Product Design is a great example. Remember when computers were all beige and looked the same? The physical design and look of a computer didn't matter. Then Apple came along and changed that. Some PC companies followed suit, some did not. Eventually, those that didn't adapt and change too lost out. Further, those that couldn't be bothered to do it properly - like Apple, also lost out too, even if they held out for longer. Getting a crappy website for £300 might make a business hold out for longer, but they sure as hell won't, over a period of time, fare better than the business that took their online branding and presence seriously. So your friends friend is like one of those PC companies that did change, but did it half-heartedly. And like they lost out in the end, so will she. Some way or another, she will pay the price for not doing it properly whilst other businesses like hers, who did do it properly, will reap the benefits. And, over time, businesses will learn. They will learn to get it done properly. So whilst we may lose out now, we can hold hope that businesses will eventually learn and those of us that build proper websites will come back into play - in a big way. Giraffic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakleaves Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Probably a 35 year old conman. I must admit, my suspicious mind was thinking the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaissance-Design Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 What we need is a professional standards body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 What we need is a professional standards body. I agree. The problem is how you measure professional standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 And, over time, businesses will learn. They will learn to get it done properly. So whilst we may lose out now, we can hold hope that businesses will eventually learn and those of us that build proper websites will come back into play - in a big way. What is a proper web site though? A lot of this is horses for courses. A simple brochure site for a small business like a builder, plumber or carpenter hardly requires a database backend just so punters can take a peek at some pretty pictures of the jobs they have done. They are unlikely to be selling loft conversions or swimming pools through a Paypal button. These are businesses that ultimately must come into face to face contact with the customer in order to measure up, assess and price the job. They must also go to the premises to do the work and normally require payment in cash or cheque, not via an online gateway. If you are selling objects that can be delivered over any reasonable distance then it is a different matter. The database, online payment gateway and all the other bells and whistles may be justified. On another forum I came across a designer in the North of England with well over 200 sites in their portfolio which started in price from £300, that is at least £60,000 worth of work. All these sites had been constructed in a WYSIWYG editor. The clients were happy with the site as it worked without any cross browser issues and did the job they wanted. The sites looked the part 5 or 6 pages with a working contact form and lots of pretty graphics. The client has no idea about W3C validation, what is so important about that anyway. Most of the most popular sites on the web are riddled with errors and warnings. The You Tube home page returns 169 errors, used to be about 300. http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com Haven't seen any campaigns to boycott the place on the basis of failing W3C validation. As long as the page works and doesn't look like a disaster zone who cares? The issue of cross browser compatibility is another one. How many people, apart from other designers nitpicking, are going to visit the site in a selection of browsers to see if the page is pixel perfect in all of them? People use "a" browser they don't have one each of a Trident, Gecko, Webkit and Presto browser open and copy and paste the URLs in order to check. I think part of the problem with those into web design is that when we land on a page we look at the source code before we look at the page content. It gets to a point where minutiae gets in the way of getting on with it. If someone using a WYSIWYG editor or an off the shelf template says they can do it in three days for a couple of hundred quid and someone else says they will need blank cheque and a couple of months to get it perfect to the pixel, guess who is getting the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakleaves Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) I think part of the problem with those into web design is that when we land on a page we look at the source code before we look at the page content. Ouch So nfc212, reading your comments over in the long post, you think we should lower our standards and just think of the cash, as long as the client is happy?? Is that what you are saying? Edited February 3, 2012 by oakleaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakleaves Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) ps, my above comment is a genuine one, I am not trying to be argumentative. I have been debating this entire thing a lot this week. Today I am sat eating dry bread waiting for a client to pay me for a job both they and I are very happy with, while other web designers who are happy to sell things of a lesser quality are going out on the town tonight and off to splurge some cash. Edited February 3, 2012 by oakleaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) I don't think you're quite understanding nfc. Most of us here, we're not dinosaurs, we do know that validation isn't everything and we do know that clients don't care about certain aspects. A "proper" website depends on a variety of factors and I know this - and ultimately it's to achieve objectives set out by the client. But client-set objectives are not the be all and end all and does not mean the website is "proper". If I make a £200 website for an estate agent and they're happy with it and it ticks their objectives - if their business still fails because of reasons to do with their website then the website has still failed. So whether a website is "proper" or not is not purely down to the client. It actually has to work - in the long run, and I think most of us would agree that regardless of client satisfaction a better invested, bespoke website by a professional developer will almost always in the long run stand the client in better stead. If all you care about is client satisfaction, then you are just as short-sighted as those who only care about validation or whatever. Edited February 3, 2012 by brightonmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 What we need is a professional standards body. Hmm, like a CORGI registration for web designers. Trouble then is you involve the heavy hand of the state, with all the regulation, red tape and increased costs that go with it. The first thing they would do, like all mandatory trade registrations, is hit you with a tax, aka registration fee. This would then have to be passed onto your customers further increasing your costs and putting off some of the lower end of the market further reducing the customer pool. It's alright for gas and electrical workers, the customer is **** scared of blowing themselves up or frazzling themselves so they will have to pay or sit in the dark with no heating. Also many components can now only be purchased by those registered to do the work. There was talk of bringing this in for carpenters as well but the DTI realised that this was one area where much work would be foregone or cowboyed without any realistic control. If the living room door falls off it's not the end of the earth, it would also be difficult to introduce a ban on the open sale of hinges and wood screws. Also web design could be outsourced to foreign designers, so raising UK costs would mean more looking abroad for their web sites. DigitalSquid and jamesosix 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 If all you care about is client satisfaction, then you are just as short-sighted as those who only care about validation or whatever. After 22 years of self employment in three industries I can assure you there is no other objective than client satisfaction, nothing else matters, not you or your principles or values whether moral or professional. Clients whether they make it onto the evolutionary scale or, like most, are whingeing, penny pinching sub-human vermin are the ones who have the brass to continue paying your bills. Any means of prising open their wallets and parting them as painlessly and quickly from its contents are valid and should be employed without qualm. The trick is getting the client to think that what you give them is what they wanted in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaissance-Design Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 (edited) A voluntary standards body would have the effect of differentiating the pros from the cowboys, if its profile were high enough. Not difficult to push it to the top of the SERPS for keywords like "web design" in the UK if all members put the weight of their linkjuice behind it, which would raise its profile enough for potential clients to have heard of it. Edited February 3, 2012 by Renaissance-Design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Ouch So nfc212, reading your comments over in the long post, you think we should lower our standards and just think of the cash, as long as the client is happy?? Is that what you are saying? ps, my above comment is a genuine one, I am not trying to be argumentative. I have been debating this entire thing a lot this week. Today I am sat eating dry bread waiting for a client to pay me for a job both they and I are very happy with, while other web designers who are happy to sell things of a lesser quality are going out on the town tonight and off to splurge some cash. I think you just answered your own question there. Standing on principles are no use unless they will keep your feet warm when you are selling the Big Issue outside the Co-op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfc212 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 A voluntary standards body would have the effect of differentiating the pros from the cowboys, if its profile were high enough. Not difficult to push it to the top of the SERPS for keywords like "web design" in the UK if all members put the weight of their linkjuice behind it, which would raise its profile enough for potential clients to have heard of it. There is the Federation of Master Builders, The Guild of Master Craftsmen and many many more. All of these were designed to eliminate the cowboys however the cowboys actually sign up to them as there is no regulation of qualifications or schedule of testing of competence. In truth these organisations are now little more than money making enterprises. If you watch Cowboy Builders, Rogue traders and the other programs of a similar nature you will find that many of these cowboys are fully paid up members. To have any teeth such a scheme would require some form of formal testing or minimum qualifications for various levels. What happens then to the self taught designers/ developers who have no formal qualifications but may be far more adept and skilled than some who have degrees? You can also guarantee that this body would demand some sort of fee. This would as I said earlier have to be passed on to the clients. How would they control people outsourcing to cheaper foreign developers, removing more money from the UK economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanSMcFadyen Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Any means of prising open their wallets and parting them as painlessly and quickly from its contents are valid and should be employed without qualm. Ugh this kind of race to the bottom mentality disgusts me. I'm sorry but if your only concern in business is money then I have absolutely no sympathy for you when some Chinese child slave vastly undercuts you and takes all your clients. Competing on cost is a guaranteed way to put yourself out of business because you can never win. You are just shooting yourself in the foot contract after contract until you lose enough blood to actually die. There has always and will always be bottom feeders who will take anything for a job. They are completely interchangeable. The computer analogy is perfect. Apple didn't get to be the biggest computer company in the world by selling £200 plastic netbooks with no features. They did it by providing decent quality products and charging accordingly. If you give people the option of quality they will take it. Maybe not right away, they might need to get burned once or twice but eventually everyone migrates upward. I can only ponder if perhaps your quoted feelings are why you've seen 3 different industries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user-removed Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 After 22 years of self employment in three industries I can assure you there is no other objective than client satisfaction, nothing else matters, not you or your principles or values whether moral or professional. Clients whether they make it onto the evolutionary scale or, like most, are whingeing, penny pinching sub-human vermin are the ones who have the brass to continue paying your bills. Any means of prising open their wallets and parting them as painlessly and quickly from its contents are valid and should be employed without qualm. The trick is getting the client to think that what you give them is what they wanted in the first place. I don't care how long you've worked in something or what it involves, it doesn't invalidate my opinions and it doesn't make yours any more justifiable. As I said, I could make a website for a client for £200 which is a pile of crap, doesn't work properly, isn't future proof, performs badly, etc etc. If the client likes it - does that make it all OK? Are you seriously suggesting the actual quality of a product is irrelevant as long as the customer is satisfied? If a builder goes to an old lady, makes her a dodgy wall and undercuts a professional but SHE is happy - is that OK? Of course it's not. Client satisfaction cannot be the only important thing in ANY industry simply because the client in rarely educated enough to make an informed judgment on a product or service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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