207 replies to this topic

[user-removed]

So I'm trying to post this hopefully without offending anyone.

But, I have a few negative thoughts regarding "the web" as a career choice.

1. I think young people mistakenly believe a career in the web to be more glamorous and prosperous than it really is. They see flashy websites and mobile apps, think "I could do that" but don't realise the huge graft that goes into these things. If you couldn't be bothered to learn French at GCSE, what on earth makes you think you're going to bother any more with PHP? The money is not as great as people think either, when I first started I was on little more after tax than somebody working full time on a checkout in Tesco. Sure, I'm on a lot more now, but only after having worked hard for it.

2. Competition for jobs is intensifying, rapidly. Yes, the web is a vastly expanding industry but right now there are not the jobs to match that. There are not enough, not even close to enough, jobs out there to match the sheer number of people trying their hand at web development. Not in the UK anyhow.

3. A lot of people seem to think all web development/design consists of is HTML/CSS/PHP with a bit of Photoshop thrown in. Not enough design principles, not enough solid programming knowledge, not enough specialisation. Too many people are a bit "skitz" with it all and just jump from one thing to another without learning it properly and thoroughly. It takes years for example to become an expert PHP programmer. You're not qualified to say you can write PHP because you spent two weeks learning a few tutorials.

4. I think a lot of young people are seeing the web as an easy career option. It's a default fallback if all else fails. I particularly come to this conclusion based on a lot of thread I've seen on here. Things like "Well I suppose I thought I should have a go" or "I don't know what else to study so I was thinking of doing web development". You really think it's that easy? Attitudes like this devalue the industry. It's like the new beauty therapy, "Well I can't do anything else".

So....am I right? Do you agree? Am I being too controversial, or even offensive?

Edited by brightonmike, 31 January 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[MikeChipshop]

• Totally agree. I think many new starters are in for a big shock that they'll have to work as hard (if not harder) at this job to get to a level where they can have a bit more money to splash around. Also the fact that you've got to use your noggin every single moment of every day. People just think sitting around and playing on computers is easy. It's not!
• I actually feel this has levelled out a bit in the last few years and even dropped off. The amount of people taking the web as a more serious business avenue has increased and i feel people see that self build software and/or Indian out-sourcing just doesn't cut the mustard in the real (business) world. May just be me though.
• Agree. Mention any sort of design theory or principle to a wannabe start up designer and 80% of them will glaze over. Same goes for code. Unfortunately it's just the way the industry is going because it is popular. These types wont last six months in the industry compared to those willing to learn and UNDERSTAND!
• Agree some what. Every industry has its ups and downs and evolves to cope with these. Survival of the fittest applies quite well here as does the random natural order. This will always happen but the ones willing to put the energy in to learn the craft will always prosper even if it takes sometime.
  Like what you said about beauty therapy, my girlfriend is a make-up artist for TV/Films etc, she recently started doing weddings because of our proximity to the local beauty spot that is over run with wedding venues. It is also over run with 'Make-up artists' which are in fact beauty therapists who've done a days course where as my girlfriend studied for years and has spent her whole life in the industry. We were worried at first because these beauty therapists were charging a pittance compared to us but it turned out to be unfounded as potential clients can tell the difference in quality. This is the way i see the web going, people are slowly realising the difference between a cheap job and a professional job, thank goodness!

[user-removed]

I guess the bottom line of your post Mike is that while I may be on the right lines...there's no point worrying about it because those of us who work hard and learn properly will always be distinguished from those who only attempt it fleetingly or with not much effort.

I don't think I'm really worried any way, but I do think it's something to think about and discuss.

Edited by brightonmike, 31 January 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[terydinho]

More and more people are going to want to get into web design and development, just purely based on the fact that the web is ever growing and a much more integral part of life than when I was a nipper. (I'm 29 btw).

Unfortunately, we're always going to see young people thinking it is easy, using the slice tool from Photoshop to a tabled layout in DW and bob's your uncle, they are a web-designer. Browser compatibility? Who cares? Web Standards? Huh? - it has always happened, but will just happen more.

I also think things like Wordpress are dangerous, don't get me wrong, it is my CMS of choice - but someone who knows how to work Facebook can build a site, choose a theme and basically create a site in WP now, with custom widgets and plugins. All that is going to stand apart in the future are people who are actually experts in their field.

I am not worried by the influx of youngsters, because I only really work with agencies, and they only employ people who know their stuff inside out, back to front and with their eyes closed... so my market is safe

Good thread Mike

[MikeChipshop]

Pretty much mate. Everything evolves and and devolves, it's just about catching that wave and riding it all the way.

[zed]

bugger, you mean my plans for a...top secret BTW...new coupons/social networking site that will change the world is going to fail? I mean can't you just tell me how it's done and that will be it?

[simplypixie]

bugger, you mean my plans for a...top secret BTW...new coupons/social networking site that will change the world is going to fail? I mean can't you just tell me how it's done and that will be it?

ROFL

I want to add another here - those who class themselves as website designers / developers when all they use are 'out of the box' systems (i.e. well known blogging, CMS and e-commerce software). They may not be the easiest to customize and implement if you don't have experience but even so. As far as I am concerned if you can't develop your own bespoke blog, CMS or e-commerce site then you are no more a web developer that Mavis down the road (sorry Mavis, whoever you are).

[user-removed]

ROFL

I want to add another here - those who class themselves as website designers / developers when all they use are 'out of the box' systems (i.e. well known blogging, CMS and e-commerce software). They may not be the easiest to customize and implement if you don't have experience but even so. As far as I am concerned if you can't develop your own bespoke blog, CMS or e-commerce site then you are no more a web developer that Mavis down the road (sorry Mavis, whoever you are).

Depends on the scenario and whether there's a need for a bespoke CMS. I think a true PHP developer for example should be able to, fairly easily, build a custom CMS for a client.

But just as important as having skills is knowing when is the right time to use them.

[porkchops]

I agree with you completely, Mike.

I think the problem stems from the low barrier of entry. There aren't any certifications or degrees required to convince clients that you are capable, all you need is a decent portfolio. Half the time a client can't tell the difference between an absolute hack and an experienced professional.

The easy access to tutorials and the low overhead cost makes it more attractive for citizens of poorer nations, too.

Even when my company was hiring for my position, my boss received a couple dozen portfolios ranging from awesome to complete hack.

Also, public perception of design doesn't help. My friends who freelance around here will introduce themselves to people who say, "Freelance design, huh? So when are you going to look for a real job?". One of them pulls in nearly 6 figures each year in design work (and still manages to work about 40 hours a week) yet somehow doesn't have a 'real job' in a layman's eyes.

Maybe if normal recognized that designers (especially those with a strong UX background) are more scientist than creative it would discourage a lot of the people who flock to design because they are under the (false) impression that it's an artistic profession.

Or maybe if people realized that being a real designer involved having design decisions dictated by your client or creative director and being forced to do many iterations of something you aren't 100% happy with to fit business needs that they'd reconsider the career path. I still love what I do but it's by no means the easy money train people make it out to be. I also consider myself to be fairly competent but I know I have such a long way to go before I can produce work on the same level as some of the awesome Dribbblers or great, prolific design studios around here.

[jamesosix]

More and more people are going to want to get into web design and development, just purely based on the fact that the web is ever growing and a much more integral part of life than when I was a nipper. (I'm 29 btw).

Unfortunately, we're always going to see young people thinking it is easy, using the slice tool from Photoshop to a tabled layout in DW and bob's your uncle, they are a web-designer. Browser compatibility? Who cares? Web Standards? Huh? - it has always happened, but will just happen more.

I also think things like Wordpress are dangerous, don't get me wrong, it is my CMS of choice - but someone who knows how to work Facebook can build a site, choose a theme and basically create a site in WP now, with custom widgets and plugins. All that is going to stand apart in the future are people who are actually experts in their field.

I am not worried by the influx of youngsters, because I only really work with agencies, and they only employ people who know their stuff inside out, back to front and with their eyes closed... so my market is safe

Good thread Mike

Wordpress isn't dangerous. If some kid leaves school and makes a wordpress site for his uncle joe, and that site does well because the kid self taught himself seo principles and marketing principles that's surely only a good thing.

The measure of success isn't how long it took to make, or technically advanced it is - success nowadays is measured by traffic and conversions.

If that site happens to be the ugliest thing ever - but gets a good volume of traffic - and converts it so uncles joes business is a massive success who really can say the kids site is bad? Whats to say now the kid wont be considered a great achiever? He isnt just because he used wordpress and in all honesty couldn't code if he tried.

Times change, and technology changes. Long gone are the days where I will spend 2 or 3 days actually designing a site. If I am only get paid small fees clients can have a great looking wordpress site for all I care. If they want a complete bespoke website then they pay for such "unnecessary" work. In my experience they are happy with my websites because they work, look good and are turned around in record time (thanks to the power of wordpress).

[terydinho]

Fair play James, but my point was meant to come across, not aimed at people who build sites for family etc... but people who actively market themselves as BACKEND experts just because they know how to do a rough theme for WP.

As I mentioned, I use wordpress almost exclusively, because I love how customisable it is - so it wasn't meant to be a wordpress bashing session

[Jack]

I think a lot of newcomers are lacking passion and are often thinking about money as an incentive.

When I was learning I decided against creating a portfolio. I was creating what I knew were poor looking websites and until my skills improved I didn't bother with the whole 'im a freelance web designer thing'.

Im glad I left the money and career thing aside until I improved. My passion greatly increased as I was learning more up until the point I joined a professional web development company two years ago, now I have my career set and a nice stable income.

Edited by J.P, 31 January 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[oakleaves]

it wasn't meant to be a wordpress bashing session

aww .. I had my nunchucks ready

[oakleaves]

"Are too many people trying to get a career in web design/development?"

Yes but that is understandable in the current job market. Every job in all sectors is getting thousands of applicants now.

[user-removed]

Some really great points in here!

Pork/David, I agree with everything you say especially regarding qualifications. I get very frustrated sometimes when I see other people bandying themselves around as "designers" because they've followed a few Photoshop tutorials. Going on about it again here (sigh) but I studied design for five years and it's immensely frustrating when somebody does it for 5 minutes and think they know it all.

The same I would imagine goes for development and back-end work.

I think it's very important that we all recognise our limitations. They don't need to be permanent but you should know what you can and can't do and what you are and are no.

I wrote the PHP and Javascript for the Google Maps on a website but I think I know diddly-squat about PHP and just because I did that I won't be writing on my CV that I "can do PHP". I can't, not for a long time.

It also frustrates me when I see CVs of people in their very early 20s or late teens and on their CV it lists programming language after programming language. I've seen CVs and Portfolios of 19/20 year olds that literally mention every language and technique in the book. They can code in ASP, Ruby, PHP, HTML, CSS, ActionScript. They can design on Photoshop. They can edit movies. They can create print work. They can look after your wife while you're away on a business trip.

I mean....come on!

And equally, the problem lies with employers. Employers need to stop hiring front end developers and asking that you can code PHP, web designers and asking that you can build e-commerce from scratch, developers and that you're proficient in Photoshop...etc

Edited by brightonmike, 31 January 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[porkchops]

Hahah... I've seen the CV/Resume keyword stuffing thing happening all the time. My boss actually made the point to say that he probably WOULDN'T hire someone who jammed a bunch of BS buzz words into their resume.

I agree, people need to recognize their limitations. My skill set, in the greater scheme of web design is pretty narrow. I'm a UX guy with strong Photoshop, HTML, CSS skills. My Javascript/PHP skills are enough to work my way through someone else's code or muddle my way through modifications to wordpress, but that's about it.

I think a lot of people are going with the shotgun approach to finding a web job: they put any language or buzzword they can into their resume to get more interviews. I don't think there is any shame in being a specialist. I have a great front-end developer I work with on all my projects (and we are starting a studio together) because he's just better at it than I am.

If people recognized what they are truly good at and focused on making those skills valuable instead of trying to cover everything I think we'd see a much higher level of skill across the board.

[lewis12]

I agree, people need to recognize their limitations. My skill set, in the greater scheme of web design is pretty narrow. I'm a UX guy with strong Photoshop, HTML, CSS skills. My Javascript/PHP skills are enough to work my way through someone else's code or muddle my way through modifications to wordpress, but that's about it.

Like porkchops has said more people need to realise they can't do everything, i dabble in javascript and php too but i'd never say i'm an expert. i've only been into photoshop, html & css for 2 years so i'd say i'm no were near a expert nor would i put anything like that on my cv.

Being 18 i know of quite a few people who think web design/development is some sort of easy career which involves sitting around playing on photoshop. the same people also seem to think writing on the cv they can do everything under the sun on their cv will get them a top job, when in fact it wont and even if you somehow do, once they realise you can't do half the things you say you'll soon be out the door.

(not saying anyone over 18 doesn't know people like this, but since it's mostly young people unemployed i thought i'd say)

[user-removed]

All I can say is this Country is going to have a shocking problem with youth unemployment and severely unskilled young workers, very, very soon.

[oakleaves]

If people recognized what they are truly good at and focused on making those skills valuable instead of trying to cover everything I think we'd see a much higher level of skill across the board.

I can see that makes sense, but at the same time I have had no choice but to know all aspects of web design from beginning to end as I have no-one I can turn to consistently who can or would do this for me (and why should anybody help me out, people are obviously trying to get their own business sorted etc, and rightly so!).

I know full well I am not the best PHP guy or MySQL or Javascript, my strengths are more in the graphic design. But I couldn't run a business without knowing the full scope as there is no one to turn to for answers consistently apart from me! I HAVE to know the broad range and take projects from concept to completion by myself. I am not a big fan of commercial partnerships, while these can have some benefits, there can also be bigger potential pitfalls and I find it much safer to call the shots by myself.

I guess the only proviso in all this is that I am quite clear in turning down jobs where I know I do not have the skillset to complete them. However, now that I have got stuck in I am making sites these days that once over I would have been running scared from, and the pay is increasing accordingly - thank goodness.

So, in conclusion, I think that what I am trying to say is it's much easier to be a specialist if you are going to be employed / looking for employment. When you freelance or go it alone you have no choice but to have a broader scope of knowledge. I do not see myself as 'jack of all trades, master of none' or feel the quality of what I do is any less than what some agencies are producing. In fact, I have a very loyal customer base.

[MikeChipshop]

All I can say is this Country is going to have a shocking problem with youth unemployment and severely unskilled young workers, very, very soon.

It already has had for quite some time.

[SamDavy]

90% of people don't visit a website and decide to look at the coding put into the overall design. They don't think twice on how much effort and time was put into this wonderful art masterpiece (Remember we are artists).

Most clients have a vision and to be honest half of them have no idea as long as it works, it's a shame.

Yet as said above the internet will expand long after we are gone, to stay on top you have to stay ahead no matter how many slice and table paste designers are lingering.

They won't linger for long they get bored!

Edited by SamDavy, 31 January 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[porkchops]

I guess the only proviso in all this is that I am quite clear in turning down jobs where I know I do not have the skillset to complete them. However, now that I have got stuck in I am making sites these days that once over I would have been running scared from, and the pay is increasing accordingly - thank goodness.

Hey, you recognize that you aren't capable of doing some projects and inform clients accordingly. My big complaint is people who take on projects that they can't handle (or apply for jobs they can't perform). As long as the client gets a solid, professional solution it's no problem that you handle a wide range of stuff. As you pointed out, you naturally need a wider skillset as a freelancer (if you don't have a partner or subcontractor to share the load), and that's fine as long as the client doesn't suffer.

[porkchops]

...Remember we are artists...

Very little of a Designer's job is art. It's about communicating a message. Aesthetics are what takes functional but boring design into the realm of good design, but designers are certainly not artists by default, we are communicators first and foremost.

[user-removed]

I cannot possibly tell you how far away from art I believe web design to be. There's almost nothing artistic about it.

Art is freedom of expression. Very rarely are you afforded that luxury with web design.

[kingy da killa]

everyone at my work is like 21-26 with a few older people(theres like 29 of us here), so i agree its defo the young people gettin into web design.

[SamDavy]

Fellas! Your seeing the art of Webdesign through tunnel vision, art is always around us. Every aspect of a design is art, yes you stick to guide lines, sticking to guide lines is boring.
Just check out WBF's wonderful art at the top of your screen.

Be free like a butterfly..

Babe another beer please.

Edited by SamDavy, 31 January 2012 - 04:26 PM.

[user-removed]

every aspect of a design is art

You could pump the nastiest, most powerful cannabis possible into Philippe Starck's nose and even he would still rubbish a statement like this.

[oakleaves]

Just check out WBF's wonderful art at the top of your screen.

Yeah, that's art with a capital F

[nfc212]

Be free like a butterfly..

Don't they only live for one day?

[nfc212]

Locally at least, web design is in the doldrums as an industry. Businesses are going down like skittles and are not being replaced. The handful that are starting up are either using free on-line builders, particularly 1&1 due to the massive advertising campaign on the TV here. An ad every break almost. The rest see a site as an unnecessary luxury and that money would be better spent elsewhere.

Life expectancy of these businesses is shorter than that of a WWI pilot. I know of one designer who took on a site and the business had gone bust before he had the chance to finish it.

I've taken to targeting surviving businesses with a website from hell and trying to cajole them into having something that looks like it isn't from the 90's.

From a few other forums I lurk around there appears to be many who have decided to try their hand at this. I suppose it looks attractive, you can sit in the house doing it, no materials to buy or stock and it can all be done while holding down a day job. Nothing big time just a few sites for local shops and businesses. However there are so many at it they are reducing the pool of potential clients.

I did a search recently and many of the full time designers/developers operating locally a few years ago have disappeared into the ether.

[oakleaves]

Locally at least, web design is in the doldrums as an industry.

That may be your personal experience but on the whole I have to disagree here. Online is the way forward and any customer with an ounce of sense can see that. Also, savvy business people recognise the need to invest in a good website. Frankly, any potential customer that does not see the wisdom of that statement are not worth having. They are welcome to use yellsite and 1&1.

I think you are doing business people in general a dis-service. Granted, times are hard and money has to be spent wisely, but that does not necessarily mean a bargain basement piece of crap. In fact, shrewd freelancers will see this as an opportunity to get work that may previously have been reserved for the more expensive agencies.

I've taken to targeting surviving businesses with a website from hell and trying to cajole them into having something that looks like it isn't from the 90's.

I hope you handle those with tact as I see that as a very risky strategy and one that is highly likely to cause offence (for one thing you don't know who designed it - may be the boss! - and another thing, they may actually like it)

Edited by oakleaves, 31 January 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[nfc212]

That may be your personal experience but on the whole I have to disagree here. Online is the way forward and any customer with an ounce of sense can see that. Also, savvy business people recognise the need to invest in a good website. Frankly, any potential customer that does not see the wisdom of that statement are not worth having. They are welcome to use yellsite and 1&1.

I think you are doing business people in general a dis-service. Granted, times are hard and money has to be spent wisely, but that does not necessarily mean a bargain basement piece of crap. In fact, shrewd freelancers will see this as an opportunity to get work that may previously have been reserved for the more expensive agencies.

The brewery have left a local pub in a condition that could cause serious injury or death to a customer or passer-by. Compo payouts for similar incidents as that which could occur have started at around £40,000. The brewery views it that it is worth taking the risk rather than spend the £900 to correct it.

As more business disappear there is less competition for those remaining, hence less need for advertising. In markets with no or little competition there is no need to advertise. When is the last time you saw a BOGOF deal on Rolls-Royces or Ferraris?

In a one shop town you use that one shop, in a one builder town you use that builder.

I hope you handle those with tact as I see that as a very risky strategy and one that is highly likely to cause offence (for one thing you don't know who designed it - may be the boss! - and another thing, they may actually like it)

Yes, I've received some very acerbic emails over that.

[nfc212]

As more business disappear there is less competition for those remaining, hence less need for advertising. In markets with no or little competition there is no need to advertise. When is the last time you saw a BOGOF deal on Rolls-Royces or Ferraris?

Come to think on it when is the last time you saw an advert for either of these?

Never.

Neither actually "advertise". They deliberately aim to make themselves appear to serve only a "select" market. That is to say they appeal to the innate snobbery of those with the brass to buy one.

Two local builders I have found who are bucking the trend of "bust builder" do no advertising at all. They do not even have entries in the Yellow pages and do not appear in any internet directories. They trade on the fact that the toffee nosed twerps who hire them like to think of them as "their man" and don't sully themselves on the unwashed masses. You know the type, wouldn't like the dirt from a Splott front room being trod onto the pavements outside their houses. It involves quite a lot of forelock pulling and cap doffing but the big paying jobs roll in. May be the way ahead. The next couple of calls I get I'll turn them down for being hoi-polloi.

[BlueDreamer]

From where I've been looking over the last 2 years or so there has always been a lot of people thinking about becoming a "web designer". It has always been seen as having a low barrier to entry - anyone with that obvious "Dreamweaver and Photochop" combo can design a web site right? Of course we all know that's not true but it doesn't stop people trying

I'd say that for every 100 people looking to enter the business only 1 will earn a decent living from it. There may be a few who earn a regular part time wage from their efforts but the rest will try, realise it's more complex than they anticipated, and give up. That's not a bad thing, it sorts the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

[MikeChipshop]

I hope you handle those with tact as I see that as a very risky strategy and one that is highly likely to cause offence (for one thing you don't know who designed it - may be the boss! - and another thing, they may actually like it)

I don't care. I'd do this and consider that I'm doing them a favour.
If there website is crap, I care not whether it was them r another 'professional' that knocked it up, if it's not doing the job then they need it fixing, which is where I'd come in.

[MikeChipshop]

I'd say that for every 100 people looking to enter the business only 1 will earn a decent living from it. There may be a few who earn a regular part time wage from their efforts but the rest will try, realise it's more complex than they anticipated, and give up. That's not a bad thing, it sorts the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

BOOM! Never a truer word spoken.

[oakleaves]

Yes, I've received some very acerbic emails over that.

I'll bet!

When I started out the telemarketing campaign I was going to try a similar tac myself - until it was pointed out to me that another approach would work far better.

I don't care. I'd do this and consider that I'm doing them a favour.
If there website is crap, I care not whether it was them r another 'professional' that knocked it up, if it's not doing the job then they need it fixing, which is where I'd come in.

yes but whether they agree is another matter. Hardly good for customer relations? Start out with an insult?

[oakleaves]

anyway I digress (as usual)

[donnyady]

From where I've been looking over the last 2 years or so there has always been a lot of people thinking about becoming a "web designer". It has always been seen as having a low barrier to entry - anyone with that obvious "Dreamweaver and Photochop" combo can design a web site right? Of course we all know that's not true but it doesn't stop people trying

I'd say that for every 100 people looking to enter the business only 1 will earn a decent living from it. There may be a few who earn a regular part time wage from their efforts but the rest will try, realise it's more complex than they anticipated, and give up. That's not a bad thing, it sorts the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

This is very true of all industrys, i'm a private hire driver in leeds and have been for the last 20 years (to long) theres 5000 of us with 40 new licence applications a week, id estimate 90% of those think its easy money. That is till they get there licence, very shortly followed by a £3000 to £5000 insurance quote and a 80 hour working week. Needless to say a lot of new drivers have packed it in within a month, experienced drivers like myself call it self regulation.

[porkchops]

This is very true of all industrys, i'm a private hire driver in leeds and have been for the last 20 years (to long) theres 5000 of us with 40 new licence applications a week, id estimate 90% of those think its easy money. That is till they get there licence, very shortly followed by a £3000 to £5000 insurance quote and a 80 hour working week. Needless to say a lot of new drivers have packed it in within a month, experienced drivers like myself call it self regulation.

This is probably the case with many industries, but the problem with anything related to the web is that, to an outsider, things look absurdly easy. I mean... all we do is spend 5 minutes in Dreamweaver and get like $5000, right?

The public perception of web design is that it's so easy and without overhead (equipment, certifications, etc.) that anyone can do it and make a living from it. Any industry that is web-centric is going to suffer from this, but it's especially problematic because web design is so nebulous compared to something concrete like programming or IT.