[Kwerty]

Having just received a debt collectors letter asking for nearly £100 for two unwanted domain names I feel compelled to ask the opinion of any hosting services and customers who may have had this before.

I purchased two domains (with web space) last year. After a certain amount of time I went to cancel them. I was told that cancellations need to be made 35 days BEFORE the end of subscription otherwise it is AUTOMATICALLY PROLONGED.

Given these points, where do you think I stand or should stand in not paying such ridiculous fees?

When purchasing I thought I was signing up for a 1 year period - NOT a lifetime!

I did not have ANY website on either hosting programs over the period. I didn't even use any space on the server!

How difficult is it to just wait until the expiry date and then prolong the account? What takes up to 35 days to achieve?

As far as I know, or at least have felt, is that when buying a domain name and or space, if you don't renew it yourself - then tough *h*t! You lose it! It is not down to the host to hang on to anything for you.

I have sent them numerous emails contesting this and received no response other than a cancellation link for each package. I would certainly not recommend this company to anyone at all who enjoys to be dealt with in a reasonable and fair and friendly way. Is their agenda to put you off of being a customer with them in the future??

Are there any representatives out their that can justify these actions? I feel the lack of communication and treatment incredibly harsh , and the fee's wildly ridiculous! They are adding £10 for every reminder, yet no-one actually returns correspondence and answers my questions.

I do look forward to any views on this. Do any of you other hosts out there automatically tie your customers in for life? Do you act so unforgiving towards your customers?

Is it not the Fairer practice for the customer to acknowledge, decide and therefore authorise a renewal, if they don't the company cannot be held responsible for keeping the information on. Rather than ASSUME there has been no change in said customer's life and that they WILL renew whether they like it or not or are even able to. Is the customer actually receiving these reminders/warnings??? How do they know?

K

This post has been edited by Kwerty: 21 December 2011 - 01:09 PM

[nublue]

I understand your frustration Kwerty, but I do have to side with the host here to some extent. Nearly all host have an auto renew policy. So they will renew your hosting/domain/ssl etc.. Unless you tell them otherwise.

The consequence of not doing this is far worse than what has happened to you. Imagine if you had a domain/hosting and built up a business on it that made a living for you and your employees. One day your website disappears because the host had not renewed the domain and your competitor had bought it!?

You will of agreed to this policy when you signed up (whether you realised that at the time is a different matter). So you will have to pay it.

Like I say I understand your frustration, and the big hosts are notorious for making it very difficult to cancel, so this is in no way a defence of one.com and their policies. But every story does have two sides.

Hope you get it sorted

This post has been edited by nublue: 21 December 2011 - 01:11 PM

[BlueDreamer]

Trading standards might be a good place to start. However if you didn't read the small print and you haven't cancelled within the agreed time they may have every right to ask for the money if that's what's stated in the terms when you signed up.

If Trading Standards can't help it may be a case of forking out the £100, and moving the domains to another registrar. At least then you may be able to sell the domains to get a few quid back.

[StuartPB]

nublue, on 21 December 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

I understand your frustration Kwerty, but I do have to side with the host here to some extent. Nearly all host have an auto renew policy. So they will renew your hosting/domain/ssl etc.. Unless you tell them otherwise.

The consequence of not doing this is far worse than what has happened to you. Imagine if you had a domain/hosting and built up a business on it that made a living for you and your employees. One day your website disappears because the host had not renewed the domain and your competitor had bought it!?

You will of agreed to this policy when you signed up (whether you realised that at the time is a different matter). So you will have to pay it.

Like I say I understand your frustration, and the big hosts are notorious for making it very difficult to cancel, so this is in no way a defence of one.com and their policies. But every story does have two sides.

Hope you get it sorted

I think you are missing the point here though. The web host purposely set a narrow time frame in which the customer can cancel the auto renewal of the contract. I have had experience of this myself, and I believe that they set the narrow time frame in the hope that many will forget about the renewal date coming up, and then end up tied in for another year (at least). Not taking enough notice of the contractual terms before signing up can lead to problems like this though, when the realisation is that you are tied in because you didn't cancel within the correct time frame. I was bitten once myself by one of these contracts and not reading the small print.

I don't dislike auto renewals, but I think that web hosts should offer a choice to de-activate auto renewals at any time in the contract term. My current web host offers this option, and I am aware of some others that do too. This is obviously a much fairer option for all involved. I would give any contract that has such time limited cancellation clauses a massive wide berth now, once bitten twice shy.

[Kwerty]

Okay. Sure the policy is fair to a customer with big business riding on the website. But with their lack of features and facilities, does ANYBODY have big business websites with them?! Policy aside, and thinking of future customer relations:

I had not a bean of space taken up on the server, no information to 'look after'. And not a word from customer services in reply to my questions and perhaps a compromise. I have been left to feel nothing but resentment for this company. I would be happy to pay the domain name renewal charge, but the space? No I think that is definitely unfair.

Yes, Bluedreamer. Thanks. I will be contacting trading standards - I'm not so convinced that you can be so heavily reprimanded like this. I'm also unconvinced of the strength of a contract without a physical signature. I had no solicitor present giving me advice when checking a box on the order form (that's if they want to get legally picky - as they are!)

This post has been edited by Kwerty: 21 December 2011 - 02:00 PM

[notbanksy]

You can ignore the letter from the DCA (debt collection agency). As far as the law is concerned, the debt is paid the minute the account is passed to a third party for collection. The DCA pays the host for your details (in effect, buys the debt - in other words, pays it), and then sets about trying to extort money from you. But you have no contract with the DCA, which means that they have no lawful right to demand any payments from you to which you do not agree. Debt collectors are all about consent. Remove your consent and they are impotent.

If the host is going to use sneaky small print clauses and underhand tactics then I have no sympathy for their unpaid invoices.

Best of luck getting this resolved.

This post has been edited by notbanksy: 21 December 2011 - 01:50 PM

[Kwerty]

StuartPB, on 21 December 2011 - 01:40 PM, said:

I think you are missing the point here though. The web host purposely set a narrow time frame in which the customer can cancel the auto renewal of the contract.

Quote

I believe that they set the narrow time frame in the hope that many will forget about the renewal date coming up

Thanks Stuart

This sums up my skeptical view on their slightly dubious terms. I doubt that such terms were set up to be beneficial to the customer so much as beneficial to them.

Does it really take a whole 35 days to 'prolong' some data on a server? Surely it's either 'delete' or 'don't delete' right?Does an extra 5 GB's of space allocated on a machine cause it to be heavier, thereby increasing the rent on the premises or something? Really baffled by that one.

Notbanksy:

Agreed! I didn't know that about collection agencies. I was once told by a solicitor that without physical signatures and more so, legal advice, a contract is not worth the paper it's written on.

This post has been edited by Kwerty: 21 December 2011 - 01:58 PM

[wesh.co.uk]

Serious classic case of getting what you pay for though....

Stuart, your statement doesnt look quite right though, how is 10+ months, a narrow window to cancel a domain name?

All they are asking for is 35+ days notice, and while that is a LOT of notice, it still gives a customer over 330+ days to tell them to cancel the domain name though right?

We only ask people to tell us no later than before the invoice is raised (No later than 24hrs before we attempt to bill you for something) and yes, it is simply a case of hitting a delete button, or simply not renewing it...

You cant force a customer to renew a domain name, but its the decent thing to do for a customer to get in touch and tell the firm they dont want the domain, and keep in mind that due to spam, a lot of firms are avoiding email for critical contact and switching to online support ticket systems so that messages can be kept secure, and nobody can say "I sent an email" when there is no proof of it or its arrival...

This is exactly why we dont use email at all for critical support issues...

[StuartPB]

wesh.co.uk, on 21 December 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

Serious classic case of getting what you pay for though....

Stuart, your statement doesnt look quite right though, how is 10+ months, a narrow window to cancel a domain name?

All they are asking for is 35+ days notice, and while that is a LOT of notice, it still gives a customer over 330+ days to tell them to cancel the domain name though right?

We only ask people to tell us no later than before the invoice is raised (No later than 24hrs before we attempt to bill you for something) and yes, it is simply a case of hitting a delete button, or simply not renewing it...

You cant force a customer to renew a domain name, but its the decent thing to do for a customer to get in touch and tell the firm they dont want the domain, and keep in mind that due to spam, a lot of firms are avoiding email for critical contact and switching to online support ticket systems so that messages can be kept secure, and nobody can say "I sent an email" when there is no proof of it or its arrival...

This is exactly why we dont use email at all for critical support issues...

I think you've misunderstood. These types of contract allow the customer to cancel the auto renewal only during the last 35 days of the contract term. It isn't about giving 35 days notice. The contracts do not allow a customer to ask for the disabling of the auto renewal until the 35 days at the end of the contract is in effect.

[Kwerty]

wesh.co.uk, on 21 December 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

Serious classic case of getting what you pay for though....

A domain name with a bit of space and simple facilities for a YEAR is what I paid for. I did not pay to be treated like a charlie-hunt! This seems like little more of a swift dig at a cheaper hosting company by a more quality hosting company such as yourself (which is a fact I don't doubt). But I don't believe anybody out there looking for cheap and simple hosting facilities should receive the added bonus of poor customer service in the way of communication, just because they're..... cheaper.

A customer, for some reason misses that part of the small print and that's where they are at fault. The 35 day rule is ludicrous. This makes it an 11 month contract, as you're stuffed if you miss it, as now you're stuck for another 12 months! And I think that this is where the company are at fault -

Quote

and yes, it is simply a case of hitting a delete button, or simply not renewing it...

...to the tune of being a rip off merchant.

Spam - my arse. Customer service is just that. Customer service, and a customer should be able to reach a company by any means the company has made available.

'We didn't get your email due to spam'

'Well, I didn't get your reminders - DUE TO SPAM!'

No excuse.

To 'side with the host' here in any way speaks volumes in my opinion.

This post has been edited by Kwerty: 21 December 2011 - 02:40 PM

[StuartPB]

wesh.co.uk, on 21 December 2011 - 02:03 PM, said:

You cant force a customer to renew a domain name, but its the decent thing to do for a customer to get in touch and tell the firm they dont want the domain, and keep in mind that due to spam, a lot of firms are avoiding email for critical contact and switching to online support ticket systems so that messages can be kept secure, and nobody can say "I sent an email" when there is no proof of it or its arrival...

This is exactly why we dont use email at all for critical support issues...

There can be proof that an email has been sent, and also received, if you ask for read and delivery receipts in the email options. When I send emails that are of importance, I always do this. Then if I don't receive the receipts, I know that I should follow up with a call. Fair point about the support tickets though.

[Kwerty]

StuartPB, on 21 December 2011 - 02:42 PM, said:

Fair point about the support tickets though.

Yes, but we're not talking about a 'critical support' issue here.

Funny how I send an email to sales@ prior to being a customer and receive a reply without fail. But sales@ when you want to talk turkey - post money spending = SPAM?

Spam was not in the equation (if you read the first post thoroughly). I did in fact receive a reply - in the form of cancellation links. Not in the form of an articulated response to any of my questions!

This post has been edited by Kwerty: 21 December 2011 - 02:50 PM

[nublue]

Kwerty, on 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

To 'side with the host' here in any way speaks volumes in my opinion.

Just for the record I am not siding with the host. I do understand your frustrations as I have been in very similar situations myself.

NuBlue allow for cancellations any time before the domain is actually renewed (paid for by us). Most smaller hosting companies do.

BUT......

all the advice about trading standards, ignoring the debt collection etc... is poor advice in my opinion unless you place no value on your time. As they will chase you for this money, and they have every right to. You signed up and agreed to their terms. You didn't read them because nobody does, but you still agreed to them. and a digital signature is 100% binding unless you are going to claim that it wasn’t you that made the purchase?

The 35 day rule is because cancellation requests will go to a cancellations department who when busy will have a backlog. So they need at least 35 days to ensure that the company has enough time for your request to filter through the company and be dealt with.

You have been stung by a company with notoriously bad customer service:

http://www.reviewcen...all-152899.html

and it sucks, I know. But all you can do now is pay them and move on. Or waste a lot of time trying not to pay them, then pay them and move on I would do the former.

This post has been edited by nublue: 21 December 2011 - 03:33 PM

[rallport]

Kwerty, on 21 December 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

I purchased two domains (with web space) last year. After a certain amount of time I went to cancel them. I was told that cancellations need to be made 35 days BEFORE the end of subscription otherwise it is AUTOMATICALLY PROLONGED.

Firstly, didn't you look at renewal fees before you purchased a domain?

Secondly, auto renewals are very common in every industry. You should have taken note of the reminder emails, as you will have been given notice that a payment is due to be taken on a certain a date.

Understandably you're a little miffed right now, but if you read the terms (which you have agreed to) the company will be covered.

[rallport]

Kwerty, on 21 December 2011 - 02:37 PM, said:

A domain name with a bit of space and simple facilities for a YEAR is what I paid for. I did not pay to be treated like a charlie-hunt! This seems like little more of a swift dig at a cheaper hosting company by a more quality hosting company such as yourself (which is a fact I don't doubt). But I don't believe anybody out there looking for cheap and simple hosting facilities should receive the added bonus of poor customer service in the way of communication, just because they're..... cheaper.

Disclaimer: The following applies to actual web hosts, not resellers.

That's a very naive and incorrect view of things. The cost of your hosting filters all the way through from the technical quality of your account right the way through to customer service - they are linked.

Just look at 1&1 - they sell very low quality quality hosting for peanuts a year. Getting support from them is next to impossible. As it is so cheap, whenever they have to support a customer they'll no doubt be losing money. The joys of overselling I guess.

As an example, look at dedicated hosting - it's very common to have a fixed SLA in place whereby you'll get issues dealt with within a quicker time period.

[Glowbridge]

notbanksy, on 21 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

But you have no contract with the DCA, which means that they have no lawful right to demand any payments from you to which you do not agree.

Normally I agree with your posts banksy but I have to say, this is absolute horse ****. It's freeman movement conspiracy territory and it doesn't have any real bearing on the legality of debt ownership and transfer today.

The DCA have absolute legal right to demand payment IF all parties were informed in writing that the transfer was taking place. You have the right to demand these documents in court.

This idea that you aren't responsible if you didn't physically sign a contract with a specific entity is fallacious and I would argue dangerous. It relies on many things but mainly a part of the Magna Carta that says you can't be legally responsible for contracts with entities you didn't personally enter into, then statutes aren't considered 'real' laws but contracts and since you didn't sign those, you can't be governed by them. The transfer of debt laws are all handled by statutes.

It's a technicality at best and a technicality that very few judges will even slightly take seriously. Trying to argue it seriously in court may even get you a contempt of court charge. We are far far past the point where it has any real meaning. Ignore statutes if you wish, the legal system won't and will take the appropriate action. Also, you did sign a contract and without doubt it had you agree to have any outstanding debts transferred to a third party of the creditors choosing.

So what is your defence? A 800 year old document said I have no business with these people OR I didn't read the contract I signed so I'm not liable for the outcome of it?

Give over.

It's your debt. Whether you believe they have legal ownership of it or not, you agreed to pay that amount of the hosting company and they didn't get it. They carried out what their contract said they would and it's fairly safe to assume they did so in the proper legal fashion. Whether they used underhanded or deceptive tactics to increase your bill unbeknownst to you is another matter entirely and is off the table at this point. Pay the debt and then take the hosting company to court for fraud or something to recoup your losses if you feel the amount was suspect. The time has passed to dispute this particular charge.

Go to court over a couple hundred quid if you like. Hell you might even win, but you probably won't. The freeman movement is a pseudo-libertarian attempt at legal philosophy that just absolutely does not fly in a courtroom with real lawyers. It's a collection of legal gibberish and 'magic words' used in an attempt to avoid paying taxes and parking tickets. It's woo of the absolute worst kind, woo that people try to use in properly serious matters.

This post has been edited by Glowbridge: 22 December 2011 - 12:36 PM

[MikeChipshop]

notbanksy, on 21 December 2011 - 01:49 PM, said:

You can ignore the letter from the DCA (debt collection agency). As far as the law is concerned, the debt is paid the minute the account is passed to a third party for collection. The DCA pays the host for your details (in effect, buys the debt - in other words, pays it), and then sets about trying to extort money from you. But you have no contract with the DCA, which means that they have no lawful right to demand any payments from you to which you do not agree. Debt collectors are all about consent. Remove your consent and they are impotent.

If the host is going to use sneaky small print clauses and underhand tactics then I have no sympathy for their unpaid invoices.

Best of luck getting this resolved.

^^^ This.
No company is going to try for more than a few months to chase you and for a £100's you're highly unlikely to ever hear anything more about it.

If you feel some moral obligation to pay it (although whoever this company hosting your domains were, they are treading very dodgy lines with crap small print like that! Hence why they off loaded your debt so quick), phone the debt company and offer them a £1 a month for the next 100 months. They will accept and that freezes any charges or interest you could have accrued. If they get snotty about it, tell them you've already spoken to the Citizens Advice Bureau about a debt management plan. They'll try to talk you out of it as they know full well that a small debt like that can be wiped with them receiving nowt.

[Glowbridge]

To clarify my post, you don't have to be nice to the debt collection agency and you can ignore it if you wish. Most of the time they are pretty toothless and will take pretty much anything from you. I'm not advocating doing whatever they say, at-all.

I was focusing solely on the point that the contract does exist and likely is legal and any attempt to tell you otherwise probably stems from a particularly vicious and unfortunate conspiracy theory that is widely disregarded in the world of law and will absolutely not help you in any way.

[othelloRob]

Kwerty, on 21 December 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

I was told that cancellations need to be made 35 days BEFORE the end of subscription otherwise it is AUTOMATICALLY PROLONGED.

Which was probably in the Terms & Conditions you agreed to at signup.

Whilst most posts have debated their own companies policy on cancellations, along with teh ethics of the clause itself, one more item to consider is that certain TLDs, it's a *requirement* to actively renew them (and from the registrars point of view, pay for them to the registry) at least a month before the renewal date, so it's quite possible that they're "out of pocket" on that, so will go after you for recovery, with ever mounting costs added - in that instance, paying, learning, and moving on is the best course of action.

[Dizi]

I agree with othelloRob, just because you assumed something doesn't make it fact, if it states in the T&C that you need to give at least 35 days notice then you need to give 35 days or more notice of your intent to cancel.

Its not unreasonable for a company to request notification of a termination, and if you clicked the I agree with the T&C when you signed up with them then they aren't going to care if you used any of the hosting space or not, all they care about is that you follow your end of the contact that you agreed to...however fair or unfair it may be.