[mtt19]

Hi guys,
In your opinion, is it necessary to have a degree to become a good web designer/front-end developer?

In my country (Italy) there aren't bachelor for this field, so I'm studying on my own, in UK what is the most important thing to obtain a job as web designer in the company/web agencies? The portfolio or a degree?

What did you study to become what you are now?

[Renaissance-Design]

Nope. I don't have a degree.

[simplypixie]

No you don't need a degree. I, as the majority of people in the industry, am completely self taught and don't have a degree.

[brightonmike]

Nope.

That isn't to say you shouldn't get one. But if you do, don't do it in web design or development, do it in a broader subject. I think the usual advice is to either get a degree in a broader design subject, engineering or business. All three of those indirectly can help you with a career in the web.

Basically, whether you get a degree or not, your decision should be nothing to do with wanting a career in web design and development.

If you do get a degree, do so because it benefits you in other ways, and because if you decide in 10 years time to give up your web design and development career - you've still got something to fall back on.

Oh - and don't let anybody scare you with the whole University loans thing. I am technically in £20k of debt but you're never aware of it and they only start to take it back when you're earning good money. You will never get bailiffs knocking on your door and uni debt can not bankrupt you.

This post has been edited by brightonmike: 19 December 2011 - 08:54 AM

[OwenONeill]

brightonmike, on 19 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Nope.

That isn't to say you shouldn't get one. But if you do, don't do it in web design or development, do it in a broader subject. I think the usual advice is to either get a degree in a broader design subject, engineering or business. All three of those indirectly can help you with a career in the web.

Basically, whether you get a degree or not, your decision should be nothing to do with wanting a career in web design and development.

If you do get a degree, do so because it benefits you in other ways, and because if you decide in 10 years time to give up your web design and development career - you've still got something to fall back on.

Oh - and don't let anybody scare you with the whole University loans thing. I am technically in £20k of debt but you're never aware of it and they only start to take it back when you're earning good money. You will never get bailiffs knocking on your door and uni debt can not bankrupt you.

This is great advice! So take it on board...

I am currently a junior web-designer and have never done a web development class in my life and I am university one day a week studying multimedia design; which is from everything from 3d design to graphic design.

Studying a broader subject will without a doubt open up more doors and will allow you to learn concepts of design in different ways.

You might be able to code, but 'design' a website, that's another thing and takes years of experience.

This post has been edited by OwenONeill: 19 December 2011 - 09:05 AM

[MikeChipshop]

brightonmike, on 19 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Nope.

That isn't to say you shouldn't get one. But if you do, don't do it in web design or development, do it in a broader subject. I think the usual advice is to either get a degree in a broader design subject, engineering or business. All three of those indirectly can help you with a career in the web.

Basically, whether you get a degree or not, your decision should be nothing to do with wanting a career in web design and development.

If you do get a degree, do so because it benefits you in other ways, and because if you decide in 10 years time to give up your web design and development career - you've still got something to fall back on.

Oh - and don't let anybody scare you with the whole University loans thing. I am technically in £20k of debt but you're never aware of it and they only start to take it back when you're earning good money. You will never get bailiffs knocking on your door and uni debt can not bankrupt you.

^^^ This

[Pedro]

I did a 7 month internship instead of a Degree and I guarantee that I learned more doing the internship and anyone who have done a 3 year university degree.

[brightonmike]

Pedro, on 19 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

I did a 7 month internship instead of a Degree and I guarantee that I learned more doing the internship and anyone who have done a 3 year university degree.

By learn more, what do you mean? If specifically web design and development, sure.

But in a general sense, I would disagree.

[Pedro]

I learned how to design well and how to code properly (html, css and javascript).
I also learned a lot about SEO and Online Marketing.

And what do you mean by "General sense"?
How to behave?

This post has been edited by Pedro: 19 December 2011 - 11:33 AM

[oakleaves]

To 'degree' or not to 'degree'?


I love this old chestnut. Always good for starting a rumble.. Surprised anyone could be bothered even taking the bait this time!!

This post has been edited by oakleaves: 19 December 2011 - 11:47 AM

[WBC]

Pedro, on 19 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

I did a 7 month internship instead of a Degree and I guarantee that I learned more doing the internship and anyone who have done a 3 year university degree.

Depends what you mean by more. On an internship you'll no doubt learn more about the business and the skills related, but on a good uni degree you'll learn a broad range of things you'd of never even thought of. A lot of good uni courses come with an internship because they understand how important experience is.

In the north you'd be lucky to get onto an internship without a degree.


If there are currently no doors open and you have the chance to go to uni then do it man, have the time of your life because as the years go by you'll find you have less time, more responsibilities and bills coming out of ears.

If you don't want to go to uni then getting a job (at least around my area) is next to impossible, unless you've got one hell of a portfolio. And by that I don't mean a bunch of nice looking websites, a good company will be wanting to know why you've done what you've done and all the theory behind it.

So the other option is freelance anyone can be freelance, for a day. But although anyone could get into it it's one of the hardest things to do and to sustain. You'll need to be disciplined, focused and good or just really damn good.

[WBC]

brightonmike, on 19 December 2011 - 11:30 AM, said:

By learn more, what do you mean? If specifically web design and development, sure.

But in a general sense, I would disagree.

Beat me to it!

[mtt19]

brightonmike, on 19 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Nope.

That isn't to say you shouldn't get one. But if you do, don't do it in web design or development, do it in a broader subject. I think the usual advice is to either get a degree in a broader design subject, engineering or business. All three of those indirectly can help you with a career in the web.

Basically, whether you get a degree or not, your decision should be nothing to do with wanting a career in web design and development.

If you do get a degree, do so because it benefits you in other ways, and because if you decide in 10 years time to give up your web design and development career - you've still got something to fall back on.

Oh - and don't let anybody scare you with the whole University loans thing. I am technically in £20k of debt but you're never aware of it and they only start to take it back when you're earning good money. You will never get bailiffs knocking on your door and uni debt can not bankrupt you.

In Italy the universities teach a lot of things that will never be useful for the working fied, in fact italian graduated are required in UK most of the time for research jobs or teaching.
In this moment I don't even have the money to go in another city to study something useful, so I can't go in UK and take the university that is very expensive. Maybe a college diploma in development, but later and not now.

Now my only possibility is to focus on the study of web development, on my own

Pedro, on 19 December 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

I did a 7 month internship instead of a Degree and I guarantee that I learned more doing the internship and anyone who have done a 3 year university degree.

Did you have experience in the field when you took the internship? I would love to do some internship but I'm worried that without some experience I can't.

[Pedro]

Well... I wouldn't tell anyone not to go to UNI, but I personally never wanted to.
I think it's a f*cking rip off for what you learn.

Actually... I always wanted to go to UNI, when I was doing my Diploma in IT, one of the modules was Web Development, and I was being taught how to build a web site with freaking tables. I was doing that when I was 12. After that I completely lost faith in studying something that would not teach me the highest standards and the latest technologies.

And ok, you can say you learn a lot of things in UNI, I have never done it, but out of all those things, what will you really use in a real life job?

After 3 bloody long years at UNI, it's not even that easy to get a job and the chances are, you'll be a Junior Developer.

One good thing about UNI though, are all the parties and girls. But if you are doing Computer Science that even that is gone...

[Pedro]

mtt19, on 19 December 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

Did you have experience in the field when you took the internship? I would love to do some internship but I'm worried that without some experience I can't.

Yes I already knew web development but I was not that good. I was an OK designer though, so that helped.

[kingy da killa]

U DONT NEED ONE.

Ive had 2 jobs in web developing from making a portfolio... well i got an apprenticeship 2 but still!

[oakleaves]

Pedro, on 19 December 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Well... I wouldn't tell anyone not to go to UNI, but I personally never wanted to.
I think it's a f*cking rip off for what you learn.

Actually... I always wanted to go to UNI, when I was doing my Diploma in IT, one of the modules was Web Development, and I was being taught how to build a web site with freaking tables. I was doing that when I was 12. After that I completely lost faith in studying something that would not teach me the highest standards and the latest technologies.

And ok, you can say you learn a lot of things in UNI, I have never done it, but out of all those things, what will you really use in a real life job?

After 3 bloody long years at UNI, it's not even that easy to get a job and the chances are, you'll be a Junior Developer.

One good thing about UNI though, are all the parties and girls. But if you are doing Computer Science then even that is gone...

^^^ This guy is cool. Pedro, you should come on here more often!

[Pedro]

oakleaves, on 19 December 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

^^^ This guy is cool. Pedro, you should come on here more often!

Been a member here for a few years already, used to be active more often but now just sometimes

[brightonmike]

I think for me it's the fact that I can drop doing what I am now at any time and I don't have to go back to square one. There is no guarantee you or I will still be, or want to be, doing web design in 15 years time.

Without a degree or a formal qualification, to move into another career field you are going to have to start pretty much at the bottom, all over again. With one, you can move into another career and you won't have to start at the bottom, depending on what it is.

I have a degree in product design and because of this, I can drop web design at any time and move into another practise of design. I can design furniture, electronics, almost anything you can think of, and I have the portfolio and the qualification to prove this, which are both required if I want to go back into product design.

I will have that for the rest of my life and I personally think that is very much worth what it cost me.

It's not about necessity. I don't think anyone with the right mind would say you have to get a degree to do web design. But that isn't the issue. The issue is your career and your life in the broader sense. I would rather be where I am now, knowing I have something solid and future proof to fall back on, than to have got to where I am without it.

This post has been edited by brightonmike: 19 December 2011 - 12:08 PM

[Pedro]

Mike that is a very valid point. But I am pretty damn sure that if I decide I want to stop being a developer, I will still work in the same field.
Maybe a Web Analyst, or User Experience, Planning, Technology Direcor, etc...

And I will still be able to get a job in any of those positions with so many years of experience being a developer.

But if I decide to be a plumber then I'm in trouble

[WBC]

If I never went to uni I'd still be at B and Q stacking shelves, actually wasn't a bad job.

Uni has opened up the world for me. What I have learned is far more than just how to code or how to use software, anyone could learn to do that, uni is about learning how to learn and how to think. And by learn I mean the full process of research.
This kinda ties in with what Mike said, when you understand the theory of design it transcends fields. You not need a degree to show this but it goes a long way to proving you can do it.

Two of the biggest things I got from Uni was confidence in my work and ideas and a large network people in many different industries. Remember it's not what you know it's who you know.

Or is that "It's not who you know it's what you know about who you know"?

This post has been edited by WBC: 19 December 2011 - 12:19 PM

[brightonmike]

That's fine.

I'm not trying to say that if you don't do a degree your life will be a disaster. Not at all.

I just don't think that if you do a good degree it can ever be a bad thing, it can only be good, it can only help you, it will never have a negative effect - not even the cost side of it (unless you're bad with your money).

[Pedro]

Mike, UNI is not a bad thing at all, you're 100% correct. +1

But the question was if it's necessary, and the answer is no, unless you wan to be a lawyer, doctor, vet, dentist...

This post has been edited by Pedro: 19 December 2011 - 12:20 PM

[MikeChipshop]

Pedro, on 19 December 2011 - 11:57 AM, said:

Actually... I always wanted to go to UNI, when I was doing my Diploma in IT, one of the modules was Web Development, and I was being taught how to build a web site with freaking tables. I was doing that when I was 12. After that I completely lost faith in studying something that would not teach me the highest standards and the latest technologies.

A very valid point.
I worked within the education system for a decade and not one thing they taught about anything was up-to-date unless they hired in a 3rd party organisation which was more than rare.

Once a teacher didn't show up to teach a journalism course and me and a collegue (who were music production teachers) got asked to cover, we didn't have the slightest clue about journalism but we had to wing it for a week.

[MikeChipshop]

brightonmike, on 19 December 2011 - 12:15 PM, said:

I just don't think that if you do a good degree it can ever be a bad thing.

This.
A degree in a subject that has a long history of tried and tested teachings makes sense. Something like accountancy/business.

Something that's in total flux all the time like Web Design, you're generally not going to find a decent course on unless you go to a private (expensive) specialist firm which is basically doing an internship.

Can't blame the people that teach these courses. They generally have a good knowledge of the subject but it takes so long to get a course through the red tape and ratified that by the time it does, it's out of date.

[WBC]

MikeChipshop, on 19 December 2011 - 12:28 PM, said:

Something that's in total flux all the time like Web Design, you're generally not going to find a decent course on unless you go to a private (expensive) specialist firm which is basically doing an internship.

On a good course they don't go over the top on technologies as these change and that's not what they are there to teach, they expect you to go and learn them in your own time.

[RobbieD90]

I haven't got a degree or many qualifications for that matter.

I have taught myself all that I know, with the help of this forum and tutorials I have learnt more than any course could of taught me. Having said that though it can depend on how you like to learn.

[brightonmike]

I've never heard good things about web courses. They are generally very out of date and that's why I'd never advise anyone to formally study web design or development.

If you do want to do a degree, if it's design related (NOT web), look for accreditation. My degree is IED accredited and their rules for accreditation are incredibly strict so it was a re-assurance that my course was up to date and to a high standard.

Plus accredited courses are something some employers look for.

[Design Fan]

I believe a degree is not necessary for becoming a web designer. I started designing way before even joining a uni degree program. BUT the thing is a degree can teach you stuff.
Lots of useful stuff which may or may not be related to your field. But the problem with university degrees is that it depends on the university standards and your teachers whether they are experienced or not and do they keep themselves up to date or not.

As for jobs like pointed above employers would prefer a professional with a degree over one whom doesn't have one.

[smithmr8]

In short, no. Everything I know about development and design is entirely self-taught. Whilst I am doing a degree in Digital Media Development, I'm not really learning anything beneficial. Amazingly, the development area of the course is painfully basic.

I chose to get a degree for two reasons. 1) The experience. I've met a lot of different people. Which, honestly, would be worth the money I've spent on it alone. 2) The degree. Despite not technically needing one, and probably never really going to need one as I aspire to running my own company. It's nice to have it as it can open certain doors when required.

Experience is much more important than qualifications. For example, I'm currently on my placement year at the moment. Spending 14 months as a software engineer. I've learnt more in the time I've been working here than I have done throughout the previous 2 years of my degree. Picked up a new language, couple of different frameworks etc. If the money, or debt, is a put-off for you then start somewhere basic. A junior role. Get some experience. Teach yourself some new skills. Then you'll have the option to move onto something higher up.

[MMMedia]

I haven't read the rest of this post but no, not at all, you don't need a degree to do anything (aside from truely academic professions such as a Doctor).

If you have the naturally capacity and drive, you can do anything, near six figures by my mid-twenties and I have no academic qualifications to my name, I wasn't leant a penny and I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth.

Money does indeed help make money, starting out with none makes the path to success all that harder and less probable but still very possible.

[brightonmike]

Near six figures?

You're earning nearly as much as David Cameron?

Sniff sniff.

[MMMedia]

brightonmike, on 29 February 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Near six figures?

You're earning nearly as much as David Cameron?

Sniff sniff.

Sniff sniff?

I used to be an IT Project Manager in Finance industry. I left 18 months ago to pursue an easier life, yes I earn a lot less but I love running my own business, it's given me great flexibility, a comfortable lifestyle yet remains a challenge!

It's also rather naive to use Cameron as an example here, you think he 'only' earns a PM salary?

This post has been edited by MMMedia: 29 February 2012 - 12:55 PM

[MMMedia]

*I should say, the first 3-5 months of starting up we barely made enough to pay our rates, but with some hard work and perseverance we're now taking a basic each and bonus quarterly.

Would I rather go back to the corporate world and earn 3-4x what I am now? No chance.

Would I rather go back to the corporate world and work a steady 35 hours instead of working for my own business and 'until the job is done'? No!

Can I see this business ever making or bettering what I used to earn, possibly, but I've always punched above my weight and aimed high - why settle for anything less?

I used to manage a team where ~50% would complain habitually about their life, their job and everything that orbits them... the problem is they wouldn't do anything about it and they never will.

I'm not like that, I have drive (some might call it an addiction), and whilst I appreciate that most people are (complaisant and comfortable in being so) I'd rather slit my throat before I went postal!

[brightonmike]

You can't really blame anyone for thinking that somebody claiming they were earning nearly £100k a year by their mid-twenties is slightly suspicious.

The absolute highest salaries I ever hear of anyone my age or thereabouts earning is £40k, and they are very rare and unusual.

So near £100k does sound a bit...suspect.

[lozenges]

I done a 3 year degree in 'Web Design' and let me tell you now, although I did learn a lot, most of the stuff I actually needed to know I taught myself after uni while freelancing. If I was to do it again i would do a design degree, something around that as I realised most clients just want it to be pretty, they don't care if you have programmed it to spin in 3d and sing your name.

Anyway that's just my thoughts.

[sarah3585]

I'm going to answer this based on my experience...

I did a 3 year course in Multimedia design, which was a little webdesign but at that time involved a lot of flash and I remember maybe one 3 hour lesson where we looked at html, that's it!

When I left and started looking for a job I found there were no webdesign jobs that was just design, they all wanted html and css knowledge (tutors always said that was a 'different job') so I got my head down and for 3 months learnt how to code.
The trouble with degrees in this field is that the industry moves so fast, the tutors have to keep up and a lot of them don't. You'll end up learning old techniques that they know well, but aren't really relevant for when you graduate and start looking for work.

So going back to the question, 'Is a design degree necessary?' my response is no, but you have to be really dedicated to the field to learn in your own time. I've worked with both web designs/developers that have degrees and some that don't, the dedicated ones are just as good as those who went to uni for 3-4 years.
I did however find my degree went a long way to get me my first job, since then I don't think my last two employers have even asked about it, my portfolio has got me where I am.

If you don't go to uni I recommend learning from tutorials or doing some online video courses from lynda.com. I learnt more skills from that way than I did at uni. I really do feel uni was mostly only good for getting the bit of paper at the end. Make sure you learn about graphic design as well as designing for the web. One way I can tell if a designer has had a design education is what they do with the typography, just the simple things like line-height and kerning are really important.

Best of luck.

[MMMedia]

brightonmike, on 29 February 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

You can't really blame anyone for thinking that somebody claiming they were earning nearly £100k a year by their mid-twenties is slightly suspicious.

The absolute highest salaries I ever hear of anyone my age or thereabouts earning is £40k, and they are very rare and unusual.

So near £100k does sound a bit...suspect.

When I was in my early 20's I was making a few hundred a day contracting. If you can secure 12 months (and I did) at those rates you're looking in excess of 50k. I have no academic qualifications to my name, so if I can do it, why can't other people (in fact I'm sure they do)?

Oh and my basic wasn't 100k, but with bonus it was getting close.

To put things in to perspective, I was in charge of multi-million pound projects that were delivered to strict specifications and deadlines - an example would be the creation of a Datacentre 'ground-up' that involved over 50 staff/resources with every element, including the man power, revolving around me.

In that context I represented exceptional value for money and was paid relative to my peers of similar ability.

Whilst I didn't 'work' from the office a massive number of hours, I did take my work home, at the dinner table, at bed time, in the shower, the gym... you name it, my work was with me!

My point really is why carry that burden for someone else, if you are going to put yourself through the strain and pressure why not do it for your own benefit i.e. running your own business?

I'll be the first to admit I'm arrogant and stubborn but I firmly believe life doesn't owe us a single thing and I can't stand people that whine on about life being unfair when a great deal of people have the tools necessary to take advantage of everything life offers.

I'm off on a tangent now, sorry!

[MMMedia]

PS: Sorry if my posts were brash and appeared confrontational or 'out there', if you met me you'd understand it's just the type of person I am, very confidence and self-assured - it's worth noting, I'm not a sociopath ... yet!

[porkchops]

I think the points the BrightonMike bring up are excellent. It's really hard to compete with candidates for jobs that have degrees unless your portfolio is superb.

Is it necessary to have a degree? Absolutely not. It really comes down to ability, but it's hard to convey that to employers.

Also, two of the most valuable skills you can get as a designer are critical thinking and problem solving. Design is chiefly about solving problems. I got a Bachelor's degree in History (Ancient / Medieval) and the biggest thing I took away was the ability to think of solutions beyond the obvious and work through problems in a way that a lot of people don't seem to think. It's a great skill to set yourself apart from a crowd of seasoned designers and is probably the reason I have my job today (though being a badass {and modest} visual designer doesn't hurt).

Some people won't see the value in a university education, and some people won't benefit from it. That's fine. If you want to succeed as a designer it's not a requirement, but I wouldn't write it off as a waste, there are a lot of intangible skills that will make you great that you can't easily learn from books or trial and error.