[mojo_jojo]

Hi all,

Hope this is the right place to post this, if not please can you let me know where it is most appropriate.

A number of months ago I found a web designer through a popular business forum to help me build my first e-commerce website using one of the already built platforms available, we just needed a theme so our site would at least stand out a little.

I checked a few review sites and through those recommendations and the fact it was reasonably cheap we went to his company for our solution.

I handed over a basic specification for our requirements, and through this we were told the site shouldn't take any longer than 4 weeks. We were told we would have something to review after 2 and then we could start to fine tune it.
This all sounded reasonable, a the quote was good enough for us to go forward with, so we went ahead and paid the 50% deposit so that he could get started on our project.

There was no contact from the designer for about 3 weeks and he became difficult to get hold of either through emails or the phone even though I left countless voicemail messages, he returned my emails at around 5 weeks telling me he had not noted the time was surprised it had been so long.

At this point there were a lot of excuses and promises made.
At the 5 week point he asked for us to give him our hosting details so he could put the site up, this was provided promptly as was all other contact from myself, including payments.

Again contact became very difficult and excuses and promises were made.
We had a very badly designed website returned to us at the 2 month point which we were not happy with at all.
We had been given the run around and he told me how he was going through some money difficulties and said he would return a project we would be happy with.

At the 14 week point for a site that was promised within 4 weeks we told him his behaviour was unacceptable and we could no longer have any dealings with him on principle. I wanted my deposit back but he said work had already been done so he would be unable to to just wipe that off.
He said all his customers were happy with their dealings, but I find that hard to believe if they've been treated anything like we have been.

To be completely honest we felt like we parted with a lot of money and we needed a completed project so I wanted to keep him on our good side, this was my first experience with starting up my own business and having dealings with 3rd party designers so accepting the excuses and promises were partly my fault but I was unsure of the correct process.

Please can you tell me what the next steps would be, and I would actually like him to at least have learnt a lesson and make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else the deals with him again.
Getting my money back would be a bonus.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice.

Kind regards.

This post has been edited by mojo_jojo: 09 October 2011 - 11:50 AM

[zed]

where are you based? where were they based? is there a contract?

[mojo_jojo]

zed, on 09 October 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

where are you based? where were they based? is there a contract?

I'm based in London, and so were they.

No official contract, I realise this was a very big mistake on my part.
Do emails count?

This post has been edited by mojo_jojo: 09 October 2011 - 12:33 PM

[Jock]

Why did you not have a contract? - Absolute madness!

Email can't be used as a contract. Sometimes its uses as evidence as part of a wider case but generally its not legally binding, its too easy to forge.

How did you pay them? Cheque? BACS? some payments can be reversed if you contact your bank.

[Gaelen]

I guess laws in my part of the world are different. With a good lawyer emails are considered written agreements. Still a contract is NEEDED, makes a case much harder to fight without one.

Before you agreed to him did he show you and sample work? anything like that so you knew what you were getting into?

[mojo_jojo]

I can see I made the mistake of not getting the contract, and as it was my first experience of getting a website developed I've learnt a very valuable lesson the hard way.

He was recommended to me on a very popular e-commerce forum and I got a reference from a company he did work for.

I can see by the fact I don't have a contract I've made the job of getting my money back a very hard fight, but I would like to at the least make sure he doesn't do it again.

I have many emails from him with his excuses and apologies.
The thing that makes me most angry is when he replied to my email that I sent, telling him his service was unacceptable and I no longer wanted him to continue his work he told me he was sorry it came to this and that all his previous customers were very happy.

I could in no way understand if they received the same service we did how they could even be close to happy.

This post has been edited by mojo_jojo: 14 October 2011 - 07:02 PM

[pandadoodle]

Simple answer is check his portfolio and contact his previous clients.

[MikeChipshop]

There is very little we can say here except for seek legal advice.
Not having a contract in place will make it very hard to claim back money, however it's not impossible.

Make sure you have the address as well and write a letter stating that you intend to claim, in court, for monies spent. Extend an olive branch by offering to accept a smaller amount than is actually owed. This will show the court that you are out for reasonable compensation and have tried under all reasonable doubt to reach an amicable solution with the developer.
Make sure you keep a copy of the letter and send the other one by recorded delivery. Also print off the emails and seal them and send them to either a lawyer or another independent witness and to yourself as a recorded delivery.

DO NOT under any circumstances contact the designers previous clients. This is very bad form and shows a willingness to commit sabotage (I know it's a strange word to use but don't right the law lol).

[pandadoodle]

All he has to do is ask for a reference nothing more, say hes consider working with X as long as your smart about it no damage is done.

I would not ask for less than what is owed either. Write a letter give them 14 days to pay you back in full. Keep the bit about willing to accept less once it goes to mediation and it will.

£30 to issue a CCJ online after the 14 days, but to let you know just because it goes down the CCJ route does not mean they will pay or you will get your money back.

As long as its posted in the post office and you get them to stamp the recorded delivery receipt you don't need any witness or none of the BS either its a common misconception.

This post has been edited by pandadoodle: 14 October 2011 - 08:18 PM

[MikeChipshop]

pandadoodle, on 14 October 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

All he has to do is ask for a reference nothing more, say hes consider working with X as long as your smart about it no damage is done.

I would not ask for less than what is owed either. Write a letter give them 14 days to pay you back in full. Keep the bit about willing to accept less once it goes to mediation and it will.

£30 to issue a CCJ online after the 14 days, but to let you know just because it goes down the CCJ route does not mean they will pay or you will get your money back.

As long as its posted in the post office and you get them to stamp the recorded delivery receipt you don't need any witness or none of the BS either its a common misconception.

Your opinion.
My experience and lawyer beg to differ but the OP can do with this information whatever they decide.

[pandadoodle]

Yes Mike and my lawyer who I have used for the pass 10 years over various legal disputes web and non web related would disagree also.

No point asking to settle for less now other wise whats the point of trying to claim it back you might as well accept your losses and move on... worst advice ever. If I sold you a car that didnt work would you want all your money back or half of it?

[MikeChipshop]

pandadoodle, on 14 October 2011 - 08:25 PM, said:

Yes Mike and my lawyer who I have used for the pass 10 years over various legal disputes web and non web related would disagree also.

No point asking to settle for less now other wise whats the point of trying to claim it back you might as well accept your losses and move on... worst advice ever. If I sold you a car that didnt work would you want all your money back or half of it?

Again... This was advice given to me by a legal expert. I have not studied the law.

[pandadoodle]

Like I said if I sold you a car and it didnt run you would only be happy getting half your money back?

OP Get some legal advice but most important thing use common sense, dont become aggressive and keep a paper trail. Everything sent recorded delivery from this point on, no more email and request in the letter he does the same.

[MikeChipshop]

pandadoodle, on 14 October 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

Like I said if I sold you a car and it didnt run you would only be happy getting half your money back?

It's about avoiding the courts If you can and not having to go through hassle, time and cost which may be unsuccessful. It's also to show you are willing to be amicable about the situation which counts for a he'll of a lot in the courts if you have to get them involved.

As I've already said, this is straight out of the mouth of a legal professional and is the route I have followed a handful of times all successful.

You may not agree and that's fair enough, you have your opinion.

This post has been edited by MikeChipshop: 14 October 2011 - 08:40 PM

[pandadoodle]

Chances are if it goes to the courts this is what happens (and its gone to the courts because you want money back and he don't want to pay) Judge looks at it agrees to your interest rate you have charged on it then suggests mediation, this is where you should negotiate terms or reduced settlement no where before hand, anything before its crazy!

Like I said you wouldn't expect half your money back for returning a faulty item or non delivery of a book via amazon would you? Same applies here. Get a better legal team Mike you could has lost 1000s over the years of settling short too early lol...

If he wins in court the CCJ fees are applied to the settlement also

If your prepared to accept say £500 instead of £1000 from your point of view now, then you have just undervalued or over valued your work now, does me a world of favors as the defendant when it goes to court!!!

This post has been edited by pandadoodle: 14 October 2011 - 08:45 PM

[MikeChipshop]

pandadoodle, on 14 October 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

Get a better legal team Mike you could has lost 1000s over the years of settling short too early lol...

Never lost, never been paid less... In most cases been paid out three times the owed amount, so I'll keep doing it my way cheers.

[pandadoodle]

MikeChipshop, on 14 October 2011 - 08:45 PM, said:

Never lost, never been paid less... In most cases been paid out three times the owed amount, so I'll keep doing it my way cheers.

How can you not have been paid less if you write to them telling them your willing to accept X% off the original price if they pay now?

[MikeChipshop]

pandadoodle, on 14 October 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

How can you not have been paid less if you write to them telling them your willing to accept X% off the original price if they pay now?

Quite simply because people are stupid and always think they can fob you of. Once you've made an offer to reduce the amount, and/or mediation, and it has been declined, you're then free to add on up to three times the original amount in compensation via court issued documents.

[pandadoodle]

MikeChipshop, on 14 October 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

Quite simply because people are stupid and always think they can fob you of. Once you've made an offer to reduce the amount, and/or mediation, and it has been declined, you're then free to add on up to three times the original amount in compensation via court issued documents.

3x Compensation will be fought to hell and high water you can't even get that in any bank interest rates. Any country court judge would deem that as excessive. This ain't LA Law, its reality. Seem to be running back and contradicting your self in places here now, you offer less and then want more when you get to court? Seem to be doing it the wrong way around...

[MikeChipshop]

pandadoodle, on 14 October 2011 - 08:53 PM, said:

3x Compensation will be fought to hell and high water you can't even get that in any bank interest rates. Any country court judge would deem that as excessive. This ain't LA Law, its reality. Seem to be running back and contradicting your self in places here now, you offer less and then want more when you get to court? Seem to be doing it the wrong way around...

You miss-understand. The offer is to accept less. However if your offer is denied then by law you're entitled to claim excess compensation.
This is a fact and I have done it several times. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. I suggest you need a new lawyer if this fact has been glossed over in the past. It could be you who is losing out on thousands.

[pandadoodle]

Ok Then.

FYI its solicitor, anyone who practice law in the uk would tell you they hate "lawyer" of course that might be the difference between the legal advice we both get here...

This post has been edited by pandadoodle: 14 October 2011 - 09:11 PM

[rallport]

Name and shame!

...and link the site he's done so we can critique it