[Jem]

Rob, on Apr 22 2008, 13:34, said:

You want it fixed, right? Let him get on with it then. The more you pester someone and demand they do it quicker, the longer it will take and more likely it will go wrong.

Actually, in this particular situation it was me nagging him and the company that finally got him off his butt and back to the house to a) assess and fix the problem. It took him an hour max, and he could have done it on the day we first told him of the problem had he bothered to listen to a word my partner and I were saying instead of dismissing us because we couldn't possibly understand a thing, we were only the muppets freezing to death in our new home. However, I didn't come here to complain about my heating so I'll leave the rest of that story for another day

Rob, on Apr 22 2008, 13:34, said:

Which is exactly why you need to explain it to them on a level they understand.

I believe that was my general point

headcoat, on Apr 22 2008, 13:35, said:

Ok rush him then and let the heating break down again in 10 minutes.

It's about trust, if you trust the plumber you have to let them sort as they see fit. If you think they are wasting time well that's different.

See above..

[Rob]

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:41, said:

Actually, in this particular situation it was me nagging him and the company that finally got him off his butt and back to the house to a) assess and fix the problem. It took him an hour max, and he could have done it on the day we first told him of the problem had he bothered to listen to a word my partner and I were saying instead of dismissing us because we couldn't possibly understand a thing, we were only the muppets freezing to death in our new home. However, I didn't come here to complain about my heating so I'll leave the rest of that story for another day

That is a completely different issue, though. You're basically saying the plumber was incompetent and not doing his job — that is completely different than the issue we are talking about. I'm surprised you wanted him back!

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:41, said:

I believe that was my general point

I wasn't disputing it, just reinforcing it

[Jem]

Rob, on Apr 22 2008, 13:44, said:

I'm surprised you wanted him back!

It's a rental property, we get what the landlord provides.

You're right, his incompetence is a different issue.. its an aside to the point I was trying to make. I could have used another example - one where the person wasn't a bit of an idiot - but the gas blokey one was the first that came to mind. I don't drive, so I can't use the popular mechanic/garage comparisons

[headcoat]

Ok here's my overview on this.

What we are discussing is a broad cultural phenomena.

What I call the 'more for less society' to some extent also known as 'blame culture' and in years gone by described as people ' knowing the cost of everything, but the value of nothing'.

Web design and development mirrors the rest of society. The proliferation of social networking sites, template building sites and blogging has to a large degree undermined *bespoke* web design.

Anyone with a modicum of computer literacy can be up and running with Wordpress in a day for instance. This is likely a large factor in clients not appreciating the skills and hardwork required in building from scratch.

In our society (imho) too much is driven by the need for profit - this results in standardisation. In turn this feeds the customer expecting neigh demanding things quickly and cheaply. For companies to compete they have to often undersell others. That's where the 'teams' / 'companies' behind these off the shelf products come in, build it, test it allow for some degree of adatability and hey presto you have a product you can sell again and again. Okay many of these sites don't sell the prduct but what they do is give it away free to sell advertising.

It's like cheap clothes from a chain store, mass market consumerism.

I think all of us want to build *bespoke* websites, that are tailored specifically for a client. The challenge for us is (as Jem orginally marked up) how to get people to recognise this is a trade - like the carpenter of old or the shoemaker or tailor or the small scale farmer.

Contemporary society on the whole has been driven and driven itself not to value these things, they can be undercut, they are seen as non-efficient, along comes the salesman and sees profit in standardising and mass producing etc. So it's a tough battle.

But some degree of hope is out there - think of the organic food markets, Jamie Oliver championing free range and organic chickens, the slow food movement. Then there's the bands who turn down record deals and use the net to publicise themselves, sometimes in an attempt to retain 'artictic' integrity and not fall foul of the marketing mans /record companies demands that they produce 'safe' saleable product.

[Jem]

Nicely summarised. I would agree to that.

[MolotovRuss]

mrbigdog, on Apr 9 2008, 02:48, said:

Personally, I think this is devaluing the hard work of a lot of reasonably priced web designers - who almost have to work for nothing to compete with some 15 year old kid with some skill that offers to produce a similar job for pocket money and eagerness to please....

I don't think that's a very fair comment. "Some 15 year old kid with some skill"?

I'm a 16 year old who quotes prices similar to that of £500, but I think that's just being competitive? If the competition of "some 15 year old kids" is bringing you down you best step up your game Mr. Big Dog ?

[Aaron Russell]

There's an interesting article on Freelance Switch about this very topic:

Why Freelancers Should Watch Their Backs (And How To Turn The Threat Into An Opportunity)

[Expat629]

MolotovRuss, on Apr 22 2008, 16:55, said:

I don't think that's a very fair comment. "Some 15 year old kid with some skill"?

I'm a 16 year old who quotes prices similar to that of £500, but I think that's just being competitive? If the competition of "some 15 year old kids" is bringing you down you best step up your game Mr. Big Dog ?

Quoting market-relevant prices is just competition. I think mrbigdog is referring to less experienced "designers" who are not seeking a career but rather something to do in their spare time, so money is less important to them and they offer to do work for little or no pay.

I suppose this tends to be younger people, although I've seen my fair share of inexperienced designers who are older too. This sort of behaviour does lead clients to believe that all web design is cheap... right up until the point they get screwed by a cowboy.

[wizely]

Thought I'd just wade in here for a little moan something along the lines of 'You think you've got it bad?'!
Even if your clients don't understand a thing about design the average person goes 'oooh' over a nice shiny new site - they don't get why it's a good design but they like the nice wee piccies!
You should be in the copy-editing and copy-writing business. Without wanting to seem immodest - I've done some stunning rewrites (you know that feeling when you pull off a creative masterstroke?) that couldn't fail to increase the site's effectiveness. Do I get so much as a feeble 'ooh'? Do I knackers! At least in design most of your clients can't use photoshop or illustrator or whatever - but everyone and their dog can write.
This is where design cowboys damage my work. Because they just chuck some random stock images into some basic HTML people forget that it's words that sell.

The only way to improve things would be to get those ROI figures from each redesign - but so many companies (crazily) don't even measure their site's performance. There would be no better advert for quality design than quoting great ROI improvements.

You designers have it so easy!!!!

[Rob]

wizely, on Apr 28 2008, 22:24, said:

Thought I'd just wade in here for a little moan something along the lines of 'You think you've got it bad?'!
Even if your clients don't understand a thing about design the average person goes 'oooh' over a nice shiny new site - they don't get why it's a good design but they like the nice wee piccies!
You should be in the copy-editing and copy-writing business. Without wanting to seem immodest - I've done some stunning rewrites (you know that feeling when you pull off a creative masterstroke?) that couldn't fail to increase the site's effectiveness. Do I get so much as a feeble 'ooh'? Do I knackers! At least in design most of your clients can't use photoshop or illustrator or whatever - but everyone and their dog can write.
This is where design cowboys damage my work. Because they just chuck some random stock images into some basic HTML people forget that it's words that sell.

The only way to improve things would be to get those ROI figures from each redesign - but so many companies (crazily) don't even measure their site's performance. There would be no better advert for quality design than quoting great ROI improvements.

You designers have it so easy!!!!

Looks like you needs yourself a decent designer to partner with… *cough* *cough* …