[mrbigdog]

Is it just me? I'm becoming more and more disconcerted with people not wanting to pay more than £500 for a website (or less)?

The problem is that the standard is so varied on the web and people situations vary so much - that often a client doesn't know what they want or what sort of quality to expect. When quoting for work, I sometimes get infuriated by people popping up or advertising 5 page websites for £100. They seem to be everywhere. Don't they realise that this is damaging the credibility of web design generally and the value people place on it?

Personally, I think this is devaluing the hard work of a lot of reasonably priced web designers - who almost have to work for nothing to compete with some 15 year old kid with some skill that offers to produce a similar job for pocket money and eagerness to please....

I have already seen several postings on this forum from people asking for help without quoting a budget (as not advised to do in the 'please read' section), or people asking for help because they have a dream of something big and can't understand why people wouldn't want to share their excitement! It's like 'Money' - your a web designer 'why would you need that??'...

What do you think?

[bumfluff]

I think the problem is that thre is a divide between people who 'get' design and those who don't. That kinda goes for both clients and the people supplying the work.. I almost said 'designers' there. At the risk of sounding elitist, design isn't something that anyone can do with the right software, which I think is the general perception ("I could do it but I don't have Photoshop"). Software knowledge is actually a very small part of design, whether it's for print or web. The biggest time factor is in research and concepting - both stages which are usually missed out at the cheaper end of the market. There isn't enough awareness of what good design IS that clients can always tell if a piece of work is good or bad.

Another factor is that there are more and more people doing work from home as a second job. This involves less overheads than having a physical office. I don't see that as a bad thing - it has no real bearing on whether the output is good or bad. Same as outsourcing.. it lowers the cost while theoretically not affecting quality.

I do agree with what you say about devaluing design. But it's also the fact that designers don't like explaining themselves. It's all a bit 'mystic special sauce', if you get what I mean. It's all 'subjective', or 'it's creative stuff, you wouldn't understand'... absolute ******, in other words. Design isn't art. Whether a piece is good or bad is NOT subjective. Success of design is quantifiable. To put it simply, barring external factors, if the profitability of a company doesn't go up after implementing your work, then your design has failed.

Now, if that kind of requirement were put into contracts, with hard and fast ROI figures stated, I think we'd see a improvements in the quality of design, respect for the trade AND the amount clients would be willing to pay.

[ErisDS]

I think this is a reflection of the general problem of the web. People expect online stuff to cost a lot less than real life stuff because it is intangible.

Many small companies are completely unaware of the value a website can bring them and are obviously unaware of what web design is or involves. There are a lot of people out there who just want a web presence rather than a website. Small local solicitor firms etc. Something to put in all the local directories and just ignore. I thing these folk and the 5 page site for £100 are a perfect match for each other. For everyone else there are quality designers. Companies who want more than a web presence and who invest in these cheap services are going to be disappointed.

I don't know if it devalues the market though.
If you take your car to be fixed at the local garage and they turn out to be cowboys, you don't decide to not have your car fixed next time! You don't go back to the same garage or the same type of garage and you realise why it was cheap! Next time you are likely to spend time making sure you go to a quality garage and you will be willing to pay proper money.

I hope that this is a phase that we will get through. An industry regulatory body/union with a recognised standard of entry exams would be nice, but is a way off yet.

[Rob]

ErisDS, on Apr 9 2008, 07:34, said:

I don't know if it devalues the market though.
If you take your car to be fixed at the local garage and they turn out to be cowboys, you don't decide to not have your car fixed next time! You don't go back to the same garage or the same type of garage and you realise why it was cheap! Next time you are likely to spend time making sure you go to a quality garage and you will be willing to pay proper money.

The only issue with the car analogy is that you need to have your car fixed, otherwise you'd be braking the law. I tend to find people don't really see the real benefit to a presence on the internet, and feel it isn't as important anymore if they get a bad experience with a web designer. How is a tech novice meant to know if a future "web designer" won't just do the same thing?

I know it's easier said than done, but if a client will not pay what you are quoting them, even after you've explained why you aren't charging £100 for 5 pages, then they aren't a client you want to work with.

Web designers need to learn to say "no" — you wouldn't hire an attorney and say you're only going to pay 1/2 of what they would normally charge. It's like Eris was saying previously, people are used to thinking things are cheaper on the internet, when this simply isn't true with a service. If you turn down a client because they are demanding or trying to barter with you, then you will in turn change their perception on the process of hiring a web designer. Maybe they won't ever hire one again, or maybe they'll not listen and get stung by a "kid designer", either way they will now know why they just got a crap design, and why that kid ran off with £100 of their money.

Standing up for yourself not only protects the industry, it also makes you look more a professional and happier person, with more potential in your future.

Just say no.

[parp]

It's a difficult situation because clients may well be happy with what they get for their £500 but not actually realise that it's not bringing any benefit to their business and may even be damaging it. They don't realise that having a website unlocks a massive amount of potential that a £500 website just isn't realising.

But we have to take much of the responsibility - we should be working with our clients to understand what they want and then explain what they're going to get from us and why it's going to solve their problem. We need to be able to justify a fee and explain that we're more expensive but you'll get something that works for you and will benefit your business.

<blatant plug>
Funnily enough, I wrote a blog topic on this just yesterday.
http://blog.massmediadesign.co.uk/archive/...y---part-2.aspx

Gregor

[headcoat]

Is a tough one this. Eris makes an extremely good point regarding people expecting the interweb to be chepap, cheap as chips ISP's - lots of contention, poor infrastructure in the UK with arteries clogging up as people watch content online etc

Sadly we live in a 'more for less' culture, where as the saying goes people know 'the cost of everything and the value of nothing'.

Having said that I'm guilty of undercharging, this though is a loss leader - the idea being to develop my portfolio and gain experience of working professionally woth a client before charging a more decent rate for my time.

Hopefully, decent clients will realise they will more than likely get rubbish for £100 and a decent site for aa £1000. But some people will aalways want things on the cheap - cowboys isp's, cowboy web designers, cowboy mechanics, cowboy plumbers etc

[ErisDS]

I too am guilty of some undercharging, but because I am a student who has to put studies first.
My clients pay less but understand that their project may get put on hold for a week or two.
They are happy with this because they know that I offer good service

You are right about the car analogy Rob, and as I said to you, I have even had a client pay for a well developed and designed website made by me, and then decided to let a friend re-do it (really badly) because that way it was easier to update.

I just hope that eventually easier methods of payment will be built into the interwebular infrastructular and that people will relearn the fact that quality is something worth paying for.

[sunwukung]

I think the problem is one of perception - in that the average Joe has no idea what a graphic designer actually does in order to make something look good.

I'm doing some freebie sites (for friends...) at the moment to get practice since I've only just embarked on the web journey. Being an illustrator by training, I'm painfully aware of how hard it is for me personally to make a design look as tight and cool as some of the ones you see on the popular css galleries - yet I can see when a design is balanced and beautiful. I just struggle to make the same true of my own!! If I could only transfer my understanding of proportion and form learnt from drawing things to balancing type and layout.

Yet - as is common for all artists - the "client" wants to control things like colour choice, font usage etc. Too often, the client thinks that all you're doing is operating the software - which is in fact the smallest part of the task. They don't comprehend why acid pink and lime green is not a great choice of colours for their hardware site. The trouble is the consumer often CAN'T even see that difference between good and bad design - even though subconsciously it's affecting them. That's perhaps an unfortunate side effect of good design - it's not shouting at you about it's own merits. If it were, it would be like hanging the mona lisa in a gaudy neon picture frame.

So, being as the client can't understand the process - they don't understand the cost. The finished product may look very simple - but the hours spent getting it to look like that, the 30 versions you've discarded, are not factored in to their perception. All they see is a nice font, maybe a nice banner - and their own content. Yet - in the right circumstances - they'll gladly pay for it. Certain objects like clothes and cars have status attached to their aesthetics - a desire arises to be associated with the classy veneer of a product.

Idiots.

[Rob]

Which is exactly why you need to explain and show the client why they should hire you for more than the £100 kid. If you can help them understand the process, they would be stupid not to pay what you're worth. If they don't, then they deserve to get done over.

[AVVStudios]

i have to agree totally i am sick of people thinking that you design websites for £50-100... i find it hard to explain why web design services are more expensive... i don't just get some template and change it for £20.. i custom make the template in PS etc, make it into a site, make sure it is valid etc... people (clients mainly) just don't see this.. they could not care less about the W3C they just want there site

[Matt B]

If think this is bad you should check out online forums like DigitalPoint.

There are individuals there producing logos for $5 a time and layouts coded in "valid" (X)HTML & CSS for as little as $50.

Couldn't agree more though with everything that's been said in this thread.

- Matt

[parp]

True, but you have to explain to them why W3C standards are good for them. Explain that Google doesn't look fondly on non W3C sites (might be true - nobody knows!). Explain that it'll be broken in some browsers and ruin their reputation.

Dazzle them with your knowledge of the web and your concern for their business. You're the expert and they need you to guide them. You have to earn their trust and then earn their money!

Like Rob said, if they don't listen then they deserve to be done over. But equally, they need to know what they get for their extra cash.

[headcoat]

Matt B, on Apr 9 2008, 14:58, said:

If think this is bad you should check out online forums like DigitalPoint.

There are individuals there producing logos for $5 a time and layouts coded in "valid" (X)HTML & CSS for as little as $50.

Couldn't agree more though with everything that's been said in this thread.

- Matt

That's just plain scary!

As said you gotta convince the client that you'll assess it / design it / make it usable / get it into google / code it / make it work etc etc.

The other one that worries me - software to 'build your own site' costs about £50, wordpress, templates etc.

But then they'll spend 3 days or more designing their own site, adding content, hosting it etc So dependent how much they earn per day could be cheaper to pay a proper web designer.

Kind of similar to painting your own house or paying professional, some people (I hope) will always have the cash to pay for our time.

[AVVStudios]

but then there are some times when you just can't argue your case.. at the end of the day the client is going to prefer to spend $5 than $100 no matter what you say... some people just don't care...

it is like those website on a disc things... ahhhh !!!

[mrbigdog]

AVVStudios, on Apr 9 2008, 13:11, said:

i have to agree totally i am sick of people thinking that you design websites for £50-100... i find it hard to explain why web design services are more expensive... i don't just get some template and change it for £20.. i custom make the template in PS etc, make it into a site, make sure it is valid etc... people (clients mainly) just don't see this.. they could not care less about the W3C they just want there site

Possibly because you need to feed yourself and clothe yourself?

There have been some very valid points here, and it sounds like a lot of you have found similar things to myself. There is a group of potential clients out there though that will totally waste your time and effort. Sadly, I think its often about contacts. Most successful web designers have repeat business from those they have done work for and from recommendations. Without that starting block - its almost a full time job in itself to market yourself and your skills. I'm personally at the point where im looking for full time employment as well as keeping my eye out for contracts and freelance work. Possibly £1400 per month basic pay is better than not getting any work for 3 months....

Anyway. I'm digressing a little. Good to read all your replies etc...

[ElanMan]

mrbigdog, on Apr 9 2008, 20:39, said:

There have been some very valid points here, and it sounds like a lot of you have found similar things to myself. There is a group of potential clients out there though that will totally waste your time and effort. Sadly, I think its often about contacts. Most successful web designers have repeat business from those they have done work for and from recommendations. Without that starting block - its almost a full time job in itself to market yourself and your skills. I'm personally at the point where im looking for full time employment as well as keeping my eye out for contracts and freelance work. Possibly £1400 per month basic pay is better than not getting any work for 3 months...

I agree with you entirely MrBigDog;
I have been very lucky and the bulk of my work has come through word of mouth.
However, I've been through the same situation as you where you are seeking a full time job at the same time because you're finding it hard to generate new work/leads.
A while back, when things were going through a slack patch, I actually got a position with a local marketing company (out of 150 candidates) and they then told me the wage was £12000 per annum. I declined the job.
The same company was charging thousands(literally) for very basic web sites and that really pissed me off!
I've kinda lost the the point of this thread but you're obviously feeling frustrated with how things are going at the moment. I sympathise a lot with your situation.
I've read some of your posts on another forum and you seem to know your way around a business.
Don't get on too much of a downer with people selling 5 - 10 page websites for £100; You're better than that!
Capitalise on what/who you know and try to squeeze yourself in to the circle.
My wife started work at a local property management company (my ears pricked up!), she mentioned what I did for a living, meanwhile I checked out their existing site (really bad) and to cut a long story short, I got their business, which has then lead to business in the same industry (decent paying clients!)
My own website is bloody awful (overhaul coming soon) and my portfolio hasn't been properly updated in a long time but I'm still getting enough work to scrape by (certainly more than the marketing company wage pro rata)
I know a lot of people recommend business clubs and networking but I've never personally liked that very much. I don't know what else to say really but feel free to contact me for my limited advice.
Also, I've described how crap telemarketing has been for me here.
Post a comment and let me know where I'm going wrong!

I think that this thread is a great thing for any aspiring freelance web developer/designer to read as hopefully it highlights one of the problems that you face when you're trying to make a business out of it.
Unfortunately, most clients that you get don't want a 'designer' site; they want a simple site for their business. The problem seems to be in convincing them that your 'simple' site is better then their nephew's 'simple' site.
A client generally couldn't care less if the site is valid xhtml; they just want sales and interest in their product/services. You need to explain to them why your site is better than their 'web designer' nephew's site (without getting too geeky)

P.S Chin up mate, you seem like one of the nice guys!

[Site Delight]

It is hard work to get £400 - £600 for a website now.
Just the other day I was talking to a guy who runs a pottery shop and got talking about him wanting a website
the next thing you know he "SAYS" I have been quoted £150 for an online shop.

So the conversation went no further I guess the customer does'nt understand about a quality website just the cost...

[angstmann]

£500 used to be the lowest price we quoted for a website. That's since gone up to £750. Anything less isn't worth the hassle these days, considering we prefer to do original designs and don't like using templates. Still, there is a market for people who want a cheap website, but there are plenty of conditions attached to that, and of course a fair bit of cutting corners involved, ie. not usually worth the hassle.

[Boyles Web Design]

Well Im a kid designer but Im not going around asking for 100 a site, I usually get around 300 to 350 USD. So dont include all kid designers as just kids that suck and trying to make a few bucks when some of them are are actually really good

[Dizi]

Boyles Web Design, on Apr 19 2008, 22:03, said:

Well Im a kid designer but Im not going around asking for 100 a site, I usually get around 300 to 350 USD. So dont include all kid designers as just kids that suck and trying to make a few bucks when some of them are are actually really good

Nice to see things have changed for you since last time you were around, when you would advertise your services on Ebay and post here that you would do sites for free. I hope you are learning a lot and that your design skills are improving a lot as you learn



I personally blame clients thinking that just because a 12 year old will do a site for £100/$200 that someone with a lot of experience and knows how to design well (not saying that all 12 year olds can't design) should match this price. If they want a site done for that much and a 12 year old will do it then go with them. I had this guy on the phone once expecting a full e-commerce site done for £150 as his friends son who had done a couple of sites said that's how much he should be paying out, I wonder if it ever got made

[Rob]

Dizi, on Apr 19 2008, 23:51, said:

Nice to see things have changed for you since last time you were around, when you would advertise your services on Ebay and post here that you would do sites for free. I hope you are learning a lot and that your design skills are improving a lot as you learn
I personally blame clients thinking that just because a 12 year old will do a site for £100/$200 that someone with a lot of experience and knows how to design well (not saying that all 12 year olds can't design) should match this price. If they want a site done for that much and a 12 year old will do it then go with them. I had this guy on the phone once expecting a full e-commerce site done for £150 as his friends son who had done a couple of sites said that's how much he should be paying out, I wonder if it ever got made

Oh my, £150? That's crazy!

Everyone loves a good deal, but you usually get what you pay for — if you only have £150 to spend then you might get a "pretty" website done by a graphics student, but I'll be pretty sure that there isn't any theory or proper construction behind it.

I think that because of "script kiddies" and amateurs charging incredibly low prices, some clients are starting to forget that web design is a profession and a full time job just like any other.

If you want a good website that fits the bill for your company/project, and that will last, then you will need to pay that extra premium for it — it's just the way things work. If I had the choice of two mechanics: a "friend" of a friend who will fix my car for £50 or a proper mechanics with a garage, uniform and shop front, who will charge me £200 but give me a guarantee — I would go with the latter option any day of the week. There is so much more to web design than just the actual website, the clients today need to realise that they are paying that bit extra for the service (and living/business expenses!), as well as the pretty bit you can see.

I could rant about this for ever

[Boyles Web Design]

They were free sites to help get some into my portfolio

[Rob]

[Edit] I mis-read your post

[Dizi]

Boyles Web Design, on Apr 20 2008, 00:36, said:

They were free sites to help get some into my portfolio

I'm not saying anything against it, I'm just saying its nice to see that things have changed for you, and I do hope that you have learnt more about designing and coding sites in this time. It would be nice to see what you have been up to , so I hope you update your portfolio soon, as it would be nice to for clients to see you can do different layout, on your portfolio page and see your most recent work.




@Rob, I know what you mean, the amount of times people have asked me to do sites for stupidly low amounts, but that £150 one sticks in my head the most

[Thomas Thomassen]

Marketing! marketing! marketing!
I think this is where we often fail. Considering that people manage to sell bottled water at the price of gold we should be able to sell standard complaint quality websites.

I see people who make websites that's doing it just because it's easy business to slice and dice in photoshop or just slap on a template. They're businessmen, not webdesigners. But they get away with it because the clients doesn't know what to expect.

And tech savy webdevelopers tend to feed clients the technical details to the potential clients which just fly past them.

I've yet to find a way to explain to non-webdevelopers the benefits of proper webdesign where they really seem to think it's a really good idea. They just nod along. And I some times hear, "that sounds like allot of work", and to a potential client that equals to more money. Frustrating.

Considering that we're working in an industry where anyone can "do a website" and clients and users thinks that a website is something purely visual in Internet Explorer, I'm wondering if it's best to focus on getting the clients that already knows the value of a professional website. It just seem like such a waste to have to argue for your methods every time with the client because their "friend's nephew doesn't do it like that.".

[y30man5]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum and joined as i'm getting to the point where I really could do with a re-design for my website.

Whilst I agree with almost everything that has been said I would like to say that although there are a lot of people out there who want something for nothing (i know this from my own experience... the amount of people that don't understand why I charge only £5.99 for a print of a drawing I've already done and yet it costs more to do a completely new drawing just for them! )... there are some people like myself who do appreciate how much it costs but simply can't afford to pay it...

... so just wanted to point that not all small business owners are cheapskates and not prepared to pay for quality, cos trust me, if i could afford to i would!

[ElanMan]

Welcome to WDF y30man5
Nice to have a different perspective on this.
Why not pop down to the 'Introductions' section and let everybody say hello; they're very friendly

[Aaron Russell]

Thomas Thomassen, on Apr 20 2008, 11:44, said:

Marketing! marketing! marketing!
I think this is where we often fail. Considering that people manage to sell bottled water at the price of gold we should be able to sell standard complaint quality websites.

Wise words. Reading this thread everyone has the right answers so you need to be telling your clients, or prospective clients that. If they are unprepaired to budge from their expectations of bargain basement web design then they need to be let go, and you need to focus you attentions at a different market/type of client.

A lot of my work has been done through word of mouth and recomendations with real local businesses and companies that I can go and see and speak to, and sell to them. I have only recently started pushing my online presence and the type of enquiry you get, and their budgets/expectations are markedly different from local businesses.

I'd love to be able to sit in my house and conduct all my business online with various clients from all over the world, who have discovered me through my blog, forum posts and search results... but realistically I don't think it's possible to make a living that way. Ultimately to make the money that I aspire to I need to get out there in my local area, meet real people from real businesses, phone people up, bang on doors and sell.... which is a bit of bummer.

[Jem]

Hmph.. at least designers can say "look at this pretty layout I made" and expect customers to associate a value with it - even if they always seriously underestimate its worth. You try explaining to a client that building an extensive cms/shop/whatever is not just a matter of clicking a few buttons in a piece of magic software.

The whole industry is surrounded in mystery for so many people and because of this they make assumptions to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

Is this their fault or ours?

[headcoat]

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 12:30, said:

Hmph.. at least designers can say "look at this pretty layout I made" and expect customers to associate a value with it - even if they always seriously underestimate its worth. You try explaining to a client that building an extensive cms/shop/whatever is not just a matter of clicking a few buttons in a piece of magic software.

The whole industry is surrounded in mystery for so many people and because of this they make assumptions to fill the gaps in their knowledge.

Is this their fault or ours?

Theirs, non computer people often have little respect for what is involved, they just want it and want it now.

So many folk thinking streaming is the same as cut and pasting some code formYou Tube into their MySpace page, that building a web page with images is like a Word doc with jpgs or gifs added.

[Rob]

Agreed! I'm yet to come up with a perfect way to explain what I do and why they need it. Some of my clients are great and really respect what I do and understand that they have hired me to do this for them because they don't know how it works — they sometimes question it, but only because they want to learn. It's when you get the awkward clients who want to be the designer and don't have a clue what they are going on about that really narks me.

[Jem]

headcoat, on Apr 22 2008, 13:08, said:

Theirs, non computer people often have little respect for what is involved, they just want it and want it now.

Ah yes, but I don't have any clue how the inside of my boiler works, and when it broke down I wanted the gas engineer to fix it, and fix it asap. Should I have gone back to college to learn about the process involved in fixing the boiler just to get a better understanding of what was taking the engineer so long? It seems impractical to me - just as impractical as a client doing a web design course so they have a better understanding and 'respect' for what is involved.

This is why I asked if it was our fault or theirs.. personally I think that sometimes we as developers, designers, etc get so wrapped up in our own world that we fail to give the client the understanding they need to begin to process what's involved. That's not to say that every client is without their own flaws, or that some clients - even with everything broken down for them - won't still treat web design/developing exactly as you've described. In cases like that, we have the option of saying no.

One thing I will say is that this mentality of how easy/simple it is, is not restricted to "non computer people"/clients - I have worked with designers who have expected the finished result from a given PSD within seconds, not understanding that there is work involved in getting it from A to B. I am sure there are also designers who have worked with developers who can lack understanding and be uncooperative/unhelpful (*coughmecough*)

[Rob]

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:20, said:

Ah yes, but I don't have any clue how the inside of my boiler works, and when it broke down I wanted the gas engineer to fix it, and fix it asap. Should I have gone back to college to learn about the process involved in fixing the boiler just to get a better understanding of what was taking the engineer so long? It seems impractical to me - just as impractical as a client doing a web design course so they have a better understanding and 'respect' for what is involved.

You don't have to know exactly how something works to have a respect for it. I would quite happily let the engineer take as long as he needs if it gets the job done. I don't have a clue what he is doing but it doesn't mean I've forgotten he is doing a skilled job. I don't know how the stock market works, but I respect that it takes skill (and a bit of luck!) to make it into an income.

What I am saying is that there is no reason why a client shouldn't respect that what you are doing takes time to be done right. If it wasn't a skilled job then they would be doing it themselves, they need to understand that they've hired you for a reason.

I do agree that you, the designer/developer, need to explain things to the client in a way that they understand. For example, you don't tell them the nitty gritty of what SEO is, you would tell them why SEO would benefit them, and that if they rush it they won't get those extra customers/visitors/money, etc.

[headcoat]

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:20, said:

Ah yes, but I don't have any clue how the inside of my boiler works, and when it broke down I wanted the gas engineer to fix it, and fix it asap. Should I have gone back to college to learn about the process involved in fixing the boiler just to get a better understanding of what was taking the engineer so long? It seems impractical to me - just as impractical as a client doing a web design course so they have a better understanding and 'respect' for what is involved.

Nope that Isn't what I meant at all !!! I've not a clue about boilers but realise I don't have, so leave it to the experts. Perhaps you should have more patience and acceptance with your plumber ?

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:20, said:

This is why I asked if it was our fault or theirs.. personally I think that sometimes we as developers, designers, etc get so wrapped up in our own world that we fail to give the client the understanding they need to begin to process what's involved. That's not to say that every client is without their own flaws, or that some clients - even with everything broken down for them - won't still treat web design/developing exactly as you've described. In cases like that, we have the option of saying no.

Yep and watch most of them switch off as soon as you begin to explain

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:20, said:

One thing I will say is that this mentality of how easy/simple it is, is not restricted to "non computer people"/clients - I have worked with designers who have expected the finished result from a given PSD within seconds, not understanding that there is work involved in getting it from A to B. I am sure there are also designers who have worked with developers who can lack understanding and be uncooperative/unhelpful (*coughmecough*)

good point.

[Jem]

Rob, on Apr 22 2008, 13:24, said:

I would quite happily let the engineer take as long as he needs if it gets the job done.

Go without heating and hot water for 2 weeks in the winter with temperatures outside reaching -7 and tell me how willing you are to let the engineer take his time

I am sure most clients don't intend any disrespect in their impatience. To them they are the only person in the world that matters. Don't get me wrong, I have my fair share of client rants to share given the time and place to do so, but sometimes all it takes is a bit of effort on behalf of the designer / developer and the realisation that those clients haven't spent X amount of years in college/uni/self-teaching themselves the principles of design or whatever..

[Rob]

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:29, said:

Go without heating and hot water for 2 weeks in the winter with temperatures outside reaching -7 and tell me how willing you are to let the engineer take his time

You want it fixed, right? Let him get on with it then. The more you pester someone and demand they do it quicker, the longer it will take and more likely it will go wrong.

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:29, said:

I am sure most clients don't intend any disrespect in their impatience. To them they are the only person in the world that matters. Don't get me wrong, I have my fair share of client rants to share given the time and place to do so, but sometimes all it takes is a bit of effort on behalf of the designer / developer and the realisation that those clients haven't spent X amount of years in college/uni/self-teaching themselves the principles of design or whatever..

Which is exactly why you need to explain it to them on a level they understand. Throw HTML and CSS out the window for them and explain why what you're doing will benefit them and their company. I'm sure they would be less impatient after that.

[headcoat]

Jem, on Apr 22 2008, 13:29, said:

Go without heating and hot water for 2 weeks in the winter with temperatures outside reaching -7 and tell me how willing you are to let the engineer take his time

Ok rush him then and let the heating break down again in 10 minutes.

It's about trust, if you trust the plumber you have to let them sort as they see fit. If you think they are wasting time well that's different.

Or you could write in to the Sun about it

[Rob]

I actually have a perfect phrase about this situation

Quote

Services can be good, cheap or fast:

- If good and fast, it won't be cheap.

- If fast and cheap, it won't be good.

- If cheap and good, it won't be fast.

You can never have all 3

I have that on my wall, along with others like:

Quote

You can't polish a turd

[headcoat]

Blimey me and Rob are agreeing 100% for once.

high fives and all that bro'

[Rob]

High five, brother!