[Gareth Daine]

Hey Folks,

I think it's time we took action against the evil that is IE6. Get on over to this link and tell Gordon Brown you've had enough.



Get Rid of Internet Explorer 6

[Skateside]

Time to jump on this bandwaggon Presure mountss to phase out IE6 (BBC)

[wizely]

I hope more people tell Gordon Brown they've had enough... come election time that is!

[Gareth Daine]

A little rise from 44 signatures to 2,408 as of posting today.

[lee grant]

Done!

[notbanksy]

I'm really sorry to be cynical, but I really doubt Gordon Brown even knows what IE6 is, let alone gives a flying toss about it. On the scale of issues in his world, it's down there with ridding the country of grey squirrels: someone else's problem.


To be frank, I couldn't care less whether IE6 disappears now or later. It's a pain in the arse, yes, but it's just part of the job. Bit like the imposed celibacy of top athletes before the big game. Only less exciting.

[Dizi]

I'm with !b on this one.

The majority of people don't know what a browser is, so until they update their operating system they will use what ever internet explorer is on their machine. Even with all the news of IE on the bbc at the moment, I bet a lot of people don't think that has anything to do with them as they don't use IE 'they use google' to look at the internet. Plus how many people are are going to be happy with all the tax money it will cost to upgrade all government systems that rely on IE6.

I would love to say good bye to to IE6, but I'm not going to get my hopes up with this, I will simply just keep doing my job and keep supporting it so that my clients get what they pay for.

[wizely]

A government wouldn't dare ignore the wrath of the web design community - it's too valuable.


After all... very few people will work for less than the minimum wage - web designers are a handy anti-inflation tool!

[Dizi]

Well with that very well thought out argument Wizely, I will now be getting my hopes up.

IE6 is going down

[IanC]

I'm with NotBansky and Dizi. In the national/global scheme of things, there's a lot more things to keep me awake at night than IE6. I'd much sooner see the time and money spent on something worthwhile.

Upgrading systems of this scale takes years. They could start tommorrow and they'd be doing well to complete a roll-out within 2-3 years.

At the last company I worked for, we were tied in to IE6 because that's what the ERP system we used certified as supported. To upgrade IE we would have to upgrade the ERP by a release. We'd have been going well to push that out in 18 months and would have to put strategic enhancement projects on freeze to do it - and that wasn't a big system in the scheme of things.

Given the track record of a typical Government IT project, if they don't need to be changed for a better reason than IE6 they're best left untouched.

[BlueDreamer]

IE6 should stay - it keeps the men from the boys

[Lev]

I would rather prefer join to NotBansky, Dizi and IanC, although I dislike IE6.
I beleive their arguments are quite enough reasonable.

[Seth]

IE 6 must go. To be honest I don't even check for anymore. No sense having an old laptop just for that.

DOWN WITH IE6!

[ErisDS]

I'm with the big boys (and girls).

IE 6 is part of your job, deal with it or get a new one that doesn't have any irritating aspects...

This post has been edited by ErisDS: 03 February 2010 - 11:03 PM

[empek]

BlueDreamer, on 03 February 2010 - 03:23 AM, said:

IE6 should stay - it keeps the men from the boys

LMFAO!!! Priceless!

[Seth]

ErisDS you do make a good point. I don't keep another computer running just IE6. I use Browsershots when I need it.

[ErisDS]

Seth, on 04 February 2010 - 12:55 AM, said:

ErisDS you do make a good point. I don't keep another computer running just IE6. I use Browsershots when I need it.

I use a combination of IETester and VMWare. I have virtual machines setup for the versions of IE7, when I need to test I can just boot a machine.

It's much easier to do than it sounds but a lot of people seem to shy away from this solution. VMWare is free software and you can find *images* all over the web. It's literally like a media player but for operating systems.

Download an XP image with IE6 on it, save it in a directory. Open it with VMware. Press Play.
Make a copy and rename it. Play in VMWare, upgrade to IE7.

Now you have both IE6 and IE7 native to test on.

[Martin Greenwood]

I don't see the problem, everything I design works fine cross browers inc IE6...

Maybe designers need to up there coding skills?

You also have to think, there seem to be a lot of people out there still running on Windows 98 and XP SP1 without the capabilities of running a more powerful browser... take my MIL for example, i upgraded her IE6 to IE8 and it killed the machine.. oops

[sunwukung]

BlueDreamer, on 03 February 2010 - 03:23 AM, said:

IE6 should stay - it keeps the men from the boys

LOL(;P

Plus, you could factor it in as part of your pricing: IE6 support? - £200 extra!

The real crime IE commits (regardless of version) is its non-standard implementation of Javascript, and the fact that it signed the death warrant of XML (and thus XHTML) in the browser. If you think CSS rendering bugs are a problem, try coding some vanilla JS event handlers...

[Gareth Daine]

I can get my sites to work in IE6 if needs be I just don't want to. Coding skills aren't the problem, it's about maintaining and improving standards.

Imagine if electricians or heating engineers had to implement different hacks and fixes to get heating and electrics to work? Granted, they are dangerous so there is a definite need for standards there but there are standards and minimum requirements in almost every profession, if not all. Why not web design?

IE6 is very old technology. I actually enjoy solving problems and learning along the way, so it's not the annoyance or irritation that's the issue. IE6 just can't keep up with the advanced technologies currently on the web and the new technologies constantly being developed. It's time it went, for good. It's inefficient, non-standard and out of date.

You might love the old horse and cart but would you use one to haul cargo across the country?

[Seth]

Website Design Liverpool, on 05 February 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

I can get my sites to work in IE6 if needs be I just don't want to. Coding skills aren't the problem, it's about maintaining and improving standards.

Imagine if electricians or heating engineers had to implement different hacks and fixes to get heating and electrics to work? Granted, they are dangerous so there is a definite need for standards there but there are standards and minimum requirements in almost every profession, if not all. Why not web design?

IE6 is very old technology. I actually enjoy solving problems and learning along the way, so it's not the annoyance or irritation that's the issue. IE6 just can't keep up with the advanced technologies currently on the web and the new technologies constantly being developed. It's time it went, for good. It's inefficient, non-standard and out of date.

You might love horse and carts but would you use one to haul cargo across the country?

I completely agree. I can code and hack for IE6 and sometimes when it's needed I will. But there has got to be a point when we all say enough. Microsoft eventually stops support of it's old operating systems, so why can't we stop using IE6. That's more of a rhetorical question.

I just think it depends on who the audience is for the site. If the majority of the site's visitors will have fast computers and more current browsers it's less necessary.

[PlanetCreate]

Okay, let me get this clear.

You want to sign a petition to present to the Prime Minister of this country to vent your fustrations about IE6. And he is to do what? , ban it? Is Gordon Brown if he is even remotely interested in this, going to put aside other pressing issues - (war- recession) and even talk about this.

Now I know a little extra code may be required for IE6 but come on, you should be billing for this time anyway so in reality it could be making you money.

Sorry to sound negative, IE6 is a pain but it is part of the territory for the next few years at least.

If you really want to phase it out then you all need to be is proactive about promoting the other browsers.

[IanC]

Dear Mr Brown,

Please could you divert precious tax-payers funding from my daughter's education and spunk it away on upgrading the entire government IT infrastructure to save me a bit of work on my next project.

I'm sure that petition on the Number10 website wasn't really created just for someone's shameless self-publicity, and that this problem really needs your urgent attention.

Cheers Gordon

P.S. World peace would be nice too, if you get the chance

P.P.S. I am old enough to vote

[wizely]

Wouldn't want the government wasting their money on things like outdated housing, hospitals, schools and other infrastructure... much better they deal with the vital issue of an outdated browser before worrying about trivial things like people's health and well-being.

Geez... the web design industry really does have some ego on it doesn't it.

[bocaj]

Quote

You want to sign a petition to present to the Prime Minister of this country to vent your fustrations about IE6. And he is to do what? , ban it? Is Gordon Brown if he is even remotely interested in this, going to put aside other pressing issues - (war- recession) and even talk about this.

Well with the very real threat of cyber warfare, anything that could render security issues needs to be addressed (albeit not by the flash Gordan himself).

http://www.wired.com...5-09/ff_estonia

Estonia, One of the most wired countries in the world (something like 90% of all banking is done online) had it's economy brought to a stand still after a DDoS attack on one of it's bank (retaliation over a memorial dispute). The government actually had to put the countries internet on lock down, banning all foreign connections.

DDoS Relies on a network of hacked computers and with IE6 being exploited in the recent Google attack, it's potentially a huge problem.

Internet security on a global scale is an important issue. It's not just about protecting your personal information, but preventing yourself unknowingly becoming part of a global attack that could literally take down banks.

Another Microsoft related attack...

http://valleywag.gaw...-over-56k-modem

Think what he could of found...

[wizely]

Kill IE6 for government if it's unsecure, but not because it's a hassle for freelance web designers!
Not that, in the UK the government has any control over what banks do of course so they could go on happily using it.

[IanC]

To be honest, as far as security goes, I'm sure the likes of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office, the MIs and the CIs are keeping the powers that be better appraised of the threats than a bunch of excitable web designers could ever hope too.

[bocaj]

IanC, on 12 February 2010 - 07:53 AM, said:

To be honest, as far as security goes, I'm sure the likes of the National Counter Terrorism Security Office, the MIs and the CIs are keeping the powers that be better appraised of the threats than a bunch of excitable web designers could ever hope too.

The point is, the vast majority of security flaws tend to occur when responsibilities overlap and things get missed, incorrect assumptions are made or theirs a communication breakdown. Weaknesses tend to be created more by human error than programmatic error. Just my observation though.

[IanC]

Heaven help us all if a web designer's petition is the solution to any shortcomings in intelligence departments operating procedures!

[Dizi]

The thing is that Microsoft have even said they want rid of IE6, but they cannot stop people from using it...so if Microsoft can't do anything about what makes you think Gordon Brown can?

[ErisDS]

comedypedro, on 02 February 2010 - 11:35 AM, said:

Even ErisDS (who secretly loves IE6 ) must think this is a good idea???

I hate IE6 as much as the next guy. But I love my job and wouldn't dream of only doing half of it!

Also I don't think this is a good idea. Firstly because there are way more important things I'd like Mr. Brown to spend his time on (thing that are also important than talking to Piers Morgan grrr). And secondly because it will only serve to give confidence to web developers who think it's OK to drop IE6 support completely & without warning to their clients (i.e. not just when it is relevant to do so or after discussion with their clients).

It would have been great if the UK jumped on the bandwagon when Germany and France released warnings last month. That could have turned into a global push including education to teach people what a browser actually is... but it didn't.

I've asked this question before but, considering one of the biggest hurdles to moving on from IE6 in the UK is the NHS & other public sector bodies, would you really rather your taxes were spent paying for new computers & for IT guys to go around upgrading everything instead of funding the curing of the ill, or sorting out the potholes? Really? Personally I'd MUCH rather my road was resurfaced...

This post has been edited by ErisDS: 15 February 2010 - 07:56 AM

[Gareth Daine]

Dear god in heaven above. You don't actually think that Gordon Brown deals with these petitions and the outcomes himself do you. It's just someone to address the goddam thing to. We do have a whole government of individuals who are responsible for different issues. Gordon Brown isn't a bloody super politician who deals with everything himself you know. Get off ya high-horses.

To those of you who are moaning on about the fact that IE6 is part of the job and it separates the men from the boys etc etc, if you'd bothered to read my response above you'd see that that is not the reason I posted this.

Also, with regards to having more important issues, cyber-terrorism/cyber-warfare is one of the most dangerous problems we have to deal with in our day and age. With virtually everything being run by computers and most government systems using IE6 (which has major security issues), I think this is a bloody damn important issue to deal with, and if you'd bothered to read the description for the petition you'd have noticed that one of the key points was security flaws.

As mentioned above, we might not have an economy/infrastructure if terrorist or criminal organisations were successful in bringing down our financial system/infrastructure using IE6's security flaws.

[Jamiee™]

I've signed up to it.
Personally i hate all of the IE.X series, i've been using FF and Opera for a long time.

[IanC]

IE6 security patches will be on there way. If the government are using centralised software management tools that shouldn't take them very long at all to get roled out. Certainly quicker and a damn site cheaper than launching multiple system upgrade projects.

I'd hope that they are using better security measures than the in-built security of a browser anyway though. If something like IE6 is such a security risk, then I would be more concerned that the whole security infrastructure around it is weak.

How about a petition to stop civil servants leaving laptops and media on trains, or getting them nicked from their cars in supermarket car parks? Baggsy me that one for a bit of a PR stunt.

A director of a web design company creates a petition, tells a journalist, then the BBC decide a fringe petition with only 44 votes at the time is a news worthy item. That's very shrewd PR indeed!

Even the guy that created the petition has mentioned patches are on the way, and spends the rest of the time talking about how much extra work he has to do (chargeable though, obviously no mug).

There's every chance the pre-election Labour PR advisors would advise not to act on the whole thing anyway. Politically it's hardly the right time for them to start commenting on something a lot of voters don't understand, and even a lot of the ones that do would question the use of funds and resources when the country has so many other problems. They're not milking a bit of PR for a web design company, they're trying to run a country and win an election.

Power stations on the verge of decommisioning, no replacement policy, no clear strategy for alternative energies, and eventually having to buy the majority of our energy from other countries that could potentially use this for political leverage. Now there's a serious threat to our infrastructure and economy I would vote to see addressed!

[Dizi]

Ok Gareth I will respond to what you had written in your previous post

Gareth Daine, on 05 February 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

Imagine if electricians or heating engineers had to implement different hacks and fixes to get heating and electrics to work? Granted, they are dangerous so there is a definite need for standards there but there are standards and minimum requirements in almost every profession, if not all. Why not web design?

Actually that is exactly what electricians and heating engineers do. the beginning this of year the downstairs light wouldn't switch on the stairs light in the office that I work at but the upstairs one did, now the electrician we got out to look at it didn't say we needed the whole of our office rewired, he offered a fix which was that one little wire was wrong and he replaced it...much like if one bit of code doesn't work in IE6 you would use a different stylesheet to fix it. Thats not to mention the electricians quick fix of using electrical tape to mend things.

The beginning of November our heating wasn't working so we got a plumber in to have a look at it as we thought it was the boiler...he didn't tell us we needed to replace the whole boiler or that we needed to rip out all of our radiators, instead he hacked out our old pump and replaced it with a new one, much like with ie6 when you use a hack to change something that isn't working, without having to replace it all. Although he did comment on how old our boiler was he still got on and fixed the problem as that was his job. (this was at home not at work)

Gareth Daine, on 05 February 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

IE6 is very old technology. I actually enjoy solving problems and learning along the way, so it's not the annoyance or irritation that's the issue. IE6 just can't keep up with the advanced technologies currently on the web and the new technologies constantly being developed. It's time it went, for good. It's inefficient, non-standard and out of date.

No one has ever said that people can't use new technologies all you need to do is take out some of the new things and make the site functional within IE6...other browsers can still use the new bits. Eris said it best when she said something along the lines of, users can't miss things when they don't know they are missing in the first place, all they care about is that the site works for them. And she is right, so why is it always one or the other, old vs new, surely as you can tell IE6 within an IE6 stylesheet to change bits and hide other bits then its not a case of one vs the other, its just a case of making the site function in IE6 and so be it if it has to lose some of the special features you give the users in other browsers at least it functions and you are giving the client the best possible site along with the strongest chance of reaching everyone who visits.


cyber-terrorism and hacking is a huge issue, but if you think seriously about it, do you really think if these government organisations just relied on IE6s botched security that we wouldn't be hearing about all the successful attacks and all the masses of data that has been stolen... government conspiracy they are covering up all these successful attacks and security risks just to protect an old browser, or maybe its just not as big a national security risk as has been made out in this thread...shame I like a good conspiracy theory


I would be happy to see IE6 go away, but its not happening any time soon...I guess maybe if all the people who signed the petition were happy to pay the multi-million pound bill that comes attached to this upgrade out of their own pockets, then I would be more optimistic about it. But as it stands our taxes are better spent on more meaningful things then making all web designers/ developed jobs easier.

[Gareth Daine]

Just sign the bloody petition.

[TopShopper]

Just signed up - for all the good it will do.

[Scott S]

BlueDreamer, on 03 February 2010 - 03:23 AM, said:

IE6 should stay - it keeps the men from the boys

I'm in the "stop bitching and deal with it camp" I'm afraid.

As much as I abhor Internet Exploder (all variants) (and everything M$ to be honest), it IS part of our job to factor for IE6.

It doesn't take THAT much work to make a site usable in IE6 if it's coded correctly in the first place.
<sideline>
Maybe David Cameron should take this up as yet another campaign promise? Get all the UK web developers/designers on side. Might actually mean he has a shot at winning, and getting that tw@t Brown out of office (Not that Cameron will be much better, but meh)</sideline>

[notbanksy]

Scott S, on 16 February 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

<sideline>
Maybe David Cameron should take this up as yet another campaign promise? Get all the UK web developers/designers on side. Might actually mean he has a shot at winning, and getting that **** Brown out of office (Not that Cameron will be much better, but meh)</sideline>

Cameron wouldn't be any better! Would be worse if anything, but I take your point. One thing I will say about Brown is he is at least more human than most PMs - doesn't mean he hasn't made an arse out of the country though.

[charliesaidthat]

notbanksy, on 16 February 2010 - 06:00 PM, said:

Cameron wouldn't be any better! Would be worse if anything, but I take your point. One thing I will say about Brown is he is at least more human than most PMs - doesn't mean he hasn't made an arse out of the country though.

Politics is all spin. Gives PR a bad name.

This is the rise of the celebrity idiots.