[spirit]

A couple of years ago I created a mini site for a division of a blue chip company which is a client of mine.

I have just found out that another division within the company really liked the design I did. They asked my client who did their website and he sent them my contact details suggesting they get in touch with me. However, instead of coming to me when they wanted their website done, they got another design company to reproduce my design. As is often the case when this kind of copying occurs, the result is somewhere between an exact copy and a poor imitation.

What, if anything, do you think I should do about this? I think that reusing my work without paying or even informing me is definitely wrong but I am not sure how much fuss I should kick up. The company is still my client and I do not want to jeopardise the relationship.

thanks

[MikeGC]

Depends, once you have made a design and sold it to a client, is it still yours or is it the clients who can do what they want with it?

[Dizi]

MikeGC, on Apr 21 2009, 12:11, said:

Depends, once you have made a design and sold it to a client, is it still yours or is it the clients who can do what they want with it?

yup, what did your contract say with regards to this? Did it mention that you are still copyright holder over the design.

As if the company gave permission for this other branch to use the design and there is nothing in the contract to state that it is yours, they could claim that as they paid you to do it for them the design is owned by them and not you.


This is sort of a grey area in design as who does own the design, the designer or the person/company who paid for the work to be done.

[spirit]

There was no contract. In the 12yrs of being a designer I have never had a contract with a client (and I have done some very big projects). Probably not the right way to do it I know, but I have never had a problem and have always been paid etc. I am a bit of an old school "my word is my bond" type when it comes to these things and I have found that most people actually respect that and respond positively to it - my clients and I therefore have a relationship based on trust as opposed to legal contracts.

I agree it is a somewhat grey area, but I believe the copyright of a design (or any creative work) is always retained by the creator of the work unless it is specifically sold. Legally, anyone claiming ownership who was not the original creator of the work would need to provide documentation specifically detailing the sale of copyright. When you do work on behalf on behalf of clients, you are giving them a license to use that work, within a reasonable scope, but the actual copyright does not transfer.

I believe it is reasonable to expect that if you quote a company to design a website, the scope of the project, and the rights of the client to use the design, are limited to that website. Otherwise, if the client owned the design, there would be nothing to stop them reselling it to others as a template for example.

I'm not too bothered about what's happened - and my client at the company is a good friend. He was the one who told me what had happened and actually suggested I write a stinky letter to the other division as he was under the impression that they would be getting me to do the work, and agreed that they were wrong to get someone else to use my design like that.

To be honest, my main issue is that they have made a pretty shoddy job of it. It's like my design, but poorly implemented and not up to my standards - and I don't like seeing my work degenerated like that.

I was thinking the best approach might be to send them a letter letting them know that while I am flattered they liked my design so much, it was a bit naughty of them use it without permission, especially when the result was a poor imitation, and suggest that if they want the real thing, done properly, they get in touch next time they have a project.

[ReaperWD]

spirit, on Apr 21 2009, 13:00, said:

There was no contract. In the 12yrs of being a designer I have never had a contract with a client (and I have done some very big projects). Probably not the right way to do it I know, but I have never had a problem and have always been paid etc. I am a bit of an old school "my word is my bond" type when it comes to these things and I have found that most people actually respect that and respond positively to it - my clients and I therefore have a relationship based on trust as opposed to legal contracts.

I agree it is a somewhat grey area, but I believe the copyright of a design (or any creative work) is always retained by the creator of the work unless it is specifically sold.

In my opinion, you have "specifically sold" them your services, which was to design a site. If i go to a designer and say "ill give you £300 for a design" they then cant say "well its mine, so you cant use it anymore"

Did you just design, or design and implement?

I also think you have left yourself abit open with the lack of contract. I have worked in that situation before, and it has gone well sometimes, bad others. Now everyone is trying to save money then there is a higher chance people will break the rules. Have you considered putting a terms and conditions on your website/portfolio? "Any work provided by myself can only be used on the site it was designed for" sort of thing.


just my opinion.

Reaper

[Sam G]

In our contracts, it is stipulated that the copyright for any assembled web pages and graphics that we create remain with us however the client has a royalty free, worldwide, non-exclusive licence to use them (on their web server). So in our case, the client can't just get someone else to rehash their existing website that we've designed without asking for our explicit permission beforehand.

It gets a bit tricky where you have no written contract though... I'm sure you do have some rights with regards to copyright, written contract or not, but you may wish to ask a solicitor about this problem to be honest.

[Avera]

spirit, on Apr 21 2009, 13:00, said:

There was no contract ... ..I am a bit of an old school "my word is my bond" type when it comes to these things...

I agree with you. We have never bothered with contracts and we deal with some very large companies. I will say one thing though, it is always a good idea to have a signed order form specifying what they are getting for their money.

A signed order form is perfect if you ever need to go to court - there is no need for contracts.

ReaperWD, on Apr 21 2009, 13:29, said:

...In my opinion, you have "specifically sold" them your services...

I would conclude that if you created a design specifically for a company then THEY own it.

Creating a website design is not dis-similar from designing a logo. You couldn't design a new logo for "PC World" and then tell them that they can't modify it and use a similar logo for say "PDA World".

Graphic & creative design is not like royalties on a patent. The client owns the design after it has been approved and hand-over has taken place (and you've been paid).

EDIT: Unless of course you specifically state that you will remain the owner of the design. I doubt you would get much work on that basis.

[spirit]

ReaperWD, on Apr 21 2009, 13:29, said:

If i go to a designer and say "ill give you £300 for a design" they then cant say "well its mine, so you cant use it anymore"

That's not what's happening here - I'm not saying they can't use the design anymore - the original site is up and running and there is no problem with that. What they have done is use the design for something else. They have gone beyond the scope of the original project.

The job they I originally hired me to do was to design and implement a site specifically for the "X" division - not to create a design which can be used across all divisions. I did that and they paid me for it. Now they have got another design company to use my design for the "Y" division (which is actually a different legal entity).

Like I said, it's not the end of the world and my client agrees it was not right.

[Avera]

The problem is that if you created the design for the main website and they re-design the rest of the website to match - that's bound to happen.

Our company would take it as a compliment!

Also - if your design is so good that they have used it again - are you not within your rights to add it to your portfolio? Or have they restrcted you from putting the work you did for them in your portfolio?

[spirit]

Avera, on Apr 21 2009, 13:45, said:

I agree with you. We have never bothered with contracts and we deal with some very large companies. I will say one thing though, it is always a good idea to have a signed order form specifying what they are getting for their money.

Agreed - for bigger projects and new clients I usually do a quote which outlines the scope of the project - and get the client to sign and date it.

Avera, on Apr 21 2009, 13:45, said:

I would conclude that if you created a design specifically for a company then THEY own it.

...Graphic & creative design is not like royalties on a patent. The client owns the design after it has been approved and hand-over has taken place (and you've been paid).

I don't think it works like that - or at least it depends what you mean by own...

Sam G, on Apr 21 2009, 13:44, said:

In our contracts, it is stipulated that the copyright for any assembled web pages and graphics that we create remain with us however the client has a royalty free, worldwide, non-exclusive licence to use them (on their web server).

Exactly - and I think this is the "default" legal position when there is no contract. The creator of any work retains the copyright to it. The client who paid for the work to be done is licensed to use that work in a reasonable way.

So if a company pays me to design a logo for them, I retain the copyright to that logo and they can use that logo as required for their business

Avera, on Apr 21 2009, 13:45, said:

EDIT: Unless of course you specifically state that you will remain the owner of the design. I doubt you would get much work on that basis.

It's actually the other way round I believe - unless the copyright is specifically transferred - it remains with the creator. I have only ever had to do this once when I was commissioned to design the logo for a new series of a popular 80's TV program. There had been a big legal battle over who owned the copyright to the original logo between the logo designer, the series creator who hired him and the TV company that bought the series - in the end the court decided the copyright remained with the original designer. As I was designing the new logo, the new series creator asked me to provide him with a specific "Transfer of copyright" document so that this problem could not happen again - and he was willing to pay me extra for that.

Avera, on Apr 21 2009, 13:55, said:

The problem is that if you created the design for the main website and they re-design the rest of the website to match - that's bound to happen.

Our company would take it as a compliment!

Also - if your design is so good that they have used it again - are you not within your rights to add it to your portfolio? Or have they restrcted you from putting the work you did for them in your portfolio?

It was more like I did the design for a small part and then they applied that to the main website! Yes - I do take it as a compliment that they have wanted to reuse the design but as I have said it was a pretty poor implementation so I would have preferred to see it done well or better yet done it myself.

No problems using the design in my portfolio, when I actually get time to update my portfolio that is....